Ep 8 - Flesh And Bone - US

[ViperAce]

koenigrules said:

Ah- but then she would not have actualized her vision at the beginning of the episode, remember!
KR

Well I’m sure she didn’t actualize her vision on purpose since she seemed surprised when it flashed back. And it still seems cruel, I mean he’s not human but he still feels pain. And having your eyes explode seems alittle painful. Just my two cents.

[Mil]

I loved the episode. Great acting and lots of ethical dilemmas which I love. Plus I love the religious theory considerations.

Mrs. President impressed me. Yep, spacing someone is a cold, cold act. You could even say it’s space cold.

And I agree shooting in the head would have been more merciful but considering what the President and humans have been though, and the mindfuck the cylon was attempting, I can understand why she was not in a merciful mood.

[ViperChickKaliyla]

I still can't make sense out of this episode...! (Now, honesty compels me to admit that perhaps part of the reason I can't make much sense out of it is because several times during it I was inturrupted by the need to deal with various assorted crises via the telephone, which kinda hampered my ability to watch the TV...) Still, the following really confuse me:

*Why is Roslin having visions of Cylons (or at least a particular Cylon) now? Especially why the one that then shows up mere secodns after her first dream?

*Why does Adama send Starbuck to interrogate Leoban?

*How does Leoban know so much about Starbuck, and talk about their destinies and such? Between that and the Cylon raider working for her and not working so well for others, I'm beggining to get worried she's a Cylon...

*Why the heck doesn't Baltar call Adama the minute Boomer leaves? Baltar is all about saving Baltar's neck. Therefore, it makes sense he wouldn't tell Boomer the truth, given the possible danger. However, there is also possible danger in letting a Cylon wander the ship!!! I would think he would have preserved his a** by not telling her, but then ratted her out the second it was safe...?

*About Starbuck in this episode--she spends the whole episode torturing Leoban, and hating him, and getting pissed at him and all the stuff he says...and at the end, she prays for him? This turnaround happened so quickly that I just can't see where it came from...

Now, observations that didn't confuse me in the slightest but are worth mentioning:

*Are noodles the only food left? I mean, seriously, on Galactica, it's always noodles. Now we see the food on a different ship, and it's--what a surprise--noodles. ;D

[AmandaC]

My fav episode when it aired on Sky One. anyway ive been reading the boards at www.scifi.com/battlestar and they reckon that laura is a cylon over there which i found laughable just thought id share that piece of info with you all.

I liked the scene at the very end when laura is havin a drink with adama and they are looking at each other over there perspective glasses him with a slight smidgeon of concern and her from the perspective of paranoia.....anyway
it was just brilliant i expected her to tell him what the cylon had said to her but she didnt nope......... just pretended everything was okey dokey........ lads there wasnt much said but these two actors are brilliant absolutely fab they conveyed more with body language than a 10 page script could have captured it was an excellent moment in tv...........

guys wait till you see next week's episode "secrets and Lies or tigh me up and tigh me down" as its known in the US its hillarious its directed by eddie olmos and i thought it was very funny in parts which was brill. I love BSG think its the best thing on tv but to see an ep with a bit of paranoia and humour.................... oh by the way for the record i hate tigh's wife she's a slapper.......dont get me started................

Loved flesh and bone im assuming either the scene at the start was laura on her drugs the cylon sending and not as someone else on the other board suggested her cylon half talking to her human half.............(still fuming over that topic of conversation ill stick to ragnor anchorage in future when ever i read over the other board im always getting pissed off...................

[kingfish]

This one starts out with Roslin having a dream that she is being chased by soldiers. Her rescuer is Leoben, the same one who Adama killed in the mini. She awakens to be told that there is a Cylon in the fleet who has been captured. On the Galactica Adama, Tigh, and Lee learn about the Cylon and decide to quarantine the ship. Kara is still trying to figure out the Raider who Boomer is now singing to. Boomer asks Tyrol what if she is a Cylon and he states she isn't. Adama asks Kara to interrogate Leoben after Roslin refuses to kill him on sight. Kara goes to the ship and we see Leoben chained. He is a liar who can really yank one's chain as he does with her. She asks him twice, "How many Cylons are in the fleet?" This is reminicent of Gun when Vulpa is interrogating Cree. This is also reminicent of when Imperious Leader is interrogating a holographic Starbuck in The Cylon Death Machine. Leoben also states that there is a nuclear warhead hidden on one of the ships. Kara says he is lying. She also states that Leoben is nothing but a "Walking Toaster." Leoben says he is a human being. Leoben talks about the Lords of Kobol and other stuff until Kara has a fit and leaves the room or should I say hobbles out and he states, "Lieutenant Starbuck." He knows who she is and she never introduced herself.


On Caprica Boomer 2 meets with Doral and a Six. Six wants to know if Helo has told Boomer he loves her. She states no but more time will be needed. The Cylons are setting up a cabin for both of them with food and other supplies including Sharon. Six mentions the fact they had sex. Six also tells Boomer that Helo might have to die and she is to carry it out. Boomer runs back to helo reminicing there journey so far on Caprica including the sex they had.


Baltar and Six are in the lab. Baltar is working on the cylon detection device while Six is rubbing his ear. In walks Boomer who wants to know how far he has come with the test. Baltar states that is need to know. Boomer wants to be tested. Baltar reluctantly agrees. She states her family came from Troy but were killed. Six explains this is hardly so, manufactured identity. Baltar runs the test, RED means she is a cylon, Green means human. "This shall be interesting," states Six. The results are in, Red. Six states to Baltar that the first thing Boomer will do is rip his head off. "Green!!" exclaims Baltar. Callis did it again, a drab episode lifted from the depths.


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Time is running short. Water torture is emplored. Leoben has his head stuck in a bucket over and over. Starbuck tells him that there is a chance that when he dies his conciousness will not be transferred to a new body because they are a long way out. At one pointhe is laughing while in the bucket. The camera showed this. She is having no luck. Leoben tells her she will find Kobol, the beginning which will lead to Earth. She figures he is lying. Leoben is going to be tortured further when Roslin arrives. She states the torture will cease. She tells Leoben that they can be friends. There is no need for further bloodshed. Leoben knows who she is and answers, "There is no bomb. I thought you would kill me and didn't want to die." Roslin thanks him by having his chains removed and Leoben tells her that Adama is a Cylon. Roslin decides to give Leoben another reward, "The airlock." Kara is stunned. Roslin says this is what you do with a defective machine. Kara places her hand on the glass, Leoben does the same before being swept out into space.


Roslin meets with Adama but is studying him for signs he is a Cylon.

==================================


This is a so so episode. I noticed that Doral is played by a Matthew Bennet. I wonder if he is related to Nigel Bennet of Forever Knight fame?

[ViperPilotMomma]

As usual, Oh man what a great episode!

Where to start? All scenes were interesting and had me on the edge of my seat trying to catch every nuance. There's so much going on in this series (each scene in every episode is just jam packed with meaning, both in dialogue and unspoken body language!) I feel like I need to watch each episode a number of times just to make sure I catch everything, and still, each time I find something new. Its definitely the mark of good writing and directing, well the entire production of it start to finish!

As I try to collect my thoughts, things straggle through. Big things that stick out...

I loved the scene with Adama standing over Ragnar-Leoban on the slab in the morgue. I seriously thought that he was going to beat that corpse with that phone! You could almost see Adama's inner struggle on his face:
This guy, these Cylons! They keep coming back! Just when we think we've gotten rid of them. I killed you on RA and I know that this is only a dead body, but you're still out there in the fleet - how many more of you are there? You're driving me crazy because you keep coming back. I ought to beat the sh*t out of you again, but you're dead! (*in Cartman voice* "I am so. p!ssed off. right. now!")

On the Starbuck interrogating Leoban aspect: I get that they probably wanted to help Starbuck feel useful, but I agree with some of the earlier posts (the ones logged after the Sky1 broadcast) that she may not have been trained in interrogation practices. That's probably why Leoban got under her skin so easily when he guessed who she was and later when he mentioned her childhood. However, if they hadn't sent her, well, the outcome may have been different. She really did that 180 pretty fast when she connected with Leoban, albeit through the glass window of the airlock - before they discarded him into space. I was shocked that she turned so quickly back to feeling upset about his (or, the) whole situation. And then in the end when she prayed to the lords of Kobol for his soul ("And may God have mercy on your soul, Argh!") - What? Are you kidding me? Considering all the the Cylons have put the Colonials through, including the mind trips, it was a bit of a surprise. But then, it still shows the human side of things, which is important for the show to keep in touch with. I mean, after all if we loose touch with that, then we're not as human any more.

Boomer with the raider! That part was great! Actually, I wanted to laugh when she seemed to be singing gently to it. Is it any more obvious than that? How much of that did the Chief catch anyway. I think it would have been interesting if we had got a thought commentary from his head on that one! And then the Cylon test! Baltar, in his very cowardice is still in collusion with the Cylons, whether he's aware of it or not.

All in all, another great episode! Can't wait for next weeK!

[Quickshot]

Again to compliment the shows versatility among it's cast, it was great to see another strong show that only used a a few of it's key cast members. I love dogfights like everyone else but I'm so glad the show is not all about that, besides I think the Hand of God episode will fullfill those wishes plenty.

Plus there was mention of the Lords of Kobol's names. Artemis and Aphrodite. I'm assuming by the two figures Starbuck has at the end, these are their central gods. Interesting how this show pulls more from Greek history as opposed to TOS which was more Egyptian slanted, but Greece was heavily influenced by Egypt.

I think this Cylon's mission was exactly what Roslin described it as in the end. To spread fear and plant disilusion. Mix lies with truth. Do these creatures have more god like sensibilities? Can they really see past and future? Hard to say but this one definitely seemed to be concerned with the fact "this has all happened before and will happen again." Fascinating concept when he mentions 'last time' he was the interrogator. When is this 'last time' he talks about? A similar concept in some new age theories is that we've lived on Earth before and have repeated our destinys. Plus have lived through past lives as other key members in our existence (mom, friend, husband, etc). All in the hopes of getting it right and progressing on......OK that was a handful. But I couldn't help thinking of it as the Cylon babbled. I guess that could open a big loophole that TOS did exist in the same timeline like others have speculated. All the questions about Cylons are kind of mounting up. He said he could've killed her right there and he really could have, why did he play the part of a prisoner? No way do I think Adama is a Cylon. I will turn off the show if that's the case. He's too good of a character for a cheap plot twist....but adds great confusion for President Roslin. That was the Cylon's mission.

I do wish Starbuck flipped off the Cylon, or the BSG equivelant of, as it was sucked out. But I think this proves also he was digging deeper in her head than anyone had before. It was confusing if the winces of pain she was enduring were from her leg or his mindfrak. I would have like to see Sgt. Hadrian interogate him. hehe. Great episode! So say we all.

[Mustex]

Great episode. Contrary to what purists keep spewing this was not complete anti-war propaganda, but a true commentary on the war (as well as good sci-fi). Rather than saying the interrogator is wrong, it simply says the interrogated is human. In the end this leads to the conclusion that war is wrong, but is sometimes a neccessary evil, and hence leaves us to judge when that evil is neccessary.

4/5. Would be 5, but for a plothole. Baltar acted like most people didn't know about the Cylon detector, but didn't Laura announce it publically when she cleared Baltar last week?

[ah-chie]

kingfish said:

I noticed that Doral is played by a Matthew Bennet. I wonder if he is related to Nigel Bennet of Forever Knight fame?

Nope... Nigel Bennett didn't move to Canada until 1986 (he was born and worked in the UK up until then) and Matthew Bennett was born in Toronto in 1968.

[caseOrange]

Some of these posts were so exhaustive and detailed about this episode that i think every possible base has been covered. Therefore, the following is just my two cubits.

:'(i don't think Roslyn, Starbuck, or either Adama are Cylons. Adama fought in the 1st Cylon War, long before bioCylons, and Lee is his biological son. Roslyn has a history also dating back to pre-bioCylon days. Starbuck--well, i just don't think she is.
:'(So far, we've seen no proof that the bioCylon models are based upon actual human beings.
:'(Has anyone thought that maybe Loeben implanted a chip into Roslyn's head a la Baltar/Six? Now that he's dead, he'll taunt her forever also. i don't know how he would have gained access to her, but who knows? Maybe Dutch...er, i mean the doctor implanted it in her, and he's a sleeper Cylon. i know this is a stretch, but she was out of it for quite a while.
:'(i like the way Starbuck pointed out to Roslyn that since Loeben was a machine, the rules of torture during interrogation didn't apply.

i give this one 4/5, not because i didn't think it wasn't a great episode--i'm just ready for some more dogfights with raiders!

[Tato]

Any BSG main character with a well known history and past is not necessarily immune from being a cylon...the human could have been captured in the past and replaced...a la "V". Although this does necessarily assume that the cylon models are (were) based on real human individuals.

Also, a Star Trek type conundrum - if a machine is sentient, has feelings etc. (i.e. bio-cylon) is it still moral to torture/murder it in cold blood? Although of course, they don't seem to have a problem with it when the situation is reversed...

[Ouiser]

Quickshot said:

I think this Cylon's mission was exactly what Roslin described it as in the end. To spread fear and plant disilusion. Mix lies with truth. Do these creatures have more god like sensibilities? Can they really see past and future? Hard to say but this one definitely seemed to be concerned with the fact "this has all happened before and will happen again." Fascinating concept when he mentions 'last time' he was the interrogator. When is this 'last time' he talks about?

I believe that is what stuck with me the most on this episode. Seems like I have more questions than ever about where all of this is going and what it means. I like them toying with the idea that all of this has happened before and will continue to happen over and over again.

This was my favorite episode. The Pres, how awesome was she? I loved how she took in the cylon's whisper about Adama being a cylon and then calmly turned around and said to jettison him out the airlock.

I didn't have a problem with Starbuck's change of heart with the cylon. I could see her struggling to not let him get to her the whole episode, so I wasn't surprised when she gave in and felt some compassion for him. Everyone is so stressed and ragged at this point that emotions are bound to be raw and easily manipulated.

Good stuff.

[MHall]

I just watched this episode after seeing all 13 (and the first 8 again), and more importantly after thinking deeply about all the clues thus far. Phew, this episode is more mind-blowing now than the first time! I shall refrain from spoilers, though rest assured I couldn't spoil much if I tried.

Here are the seemingly important clues in this episode...

1. Artemis and Aphrodite. Leoben guesses, apparently correctly, that Starbuck worships Artemis and Aphrodite. We had one hint of a Greek god connection a few episodes ago, but now we can conclude that the full Pantheon of 12 Greek gods likely maps to the 12 Lords of Kobol. And this begs a mapping to the 12 Cylon models as well. Six is Aphrodite, no doubt. Apollo is, um, let me think, Apollo! Yep, Cylon. So then who is Kara Thrace, if she is a Cylon model? I've put a lot of thought into it, and we could talk about it, but I can't narrow Starbuck down past Artemis, Athena, or Ares. Just note that if Starbuck is not Artemis, then Zak is! Does anyone know if Zak was Apollo's fraternal twin?

2. Rivers, streams, water. Rivers and streams were mentioned by Leoben two or three times, and then Starbuck makes a crack like, "Boy, you sure do love your rivers and streams." Plus there is the use of water in the interrogation. What is the significance? Many have suggested that Leoben maps to Hermes (sly messenger), or Dionysus (mad.) However, with the water references, could Leoben map to Hades (river Styx plus four other rivers in the underworld)? Or Poseidon (seas, water)? Hermes still seems to fit best, so what else could the water references mean? Does the episode Water have anything to do with it?

3. "Oh, now it all makes sense!" When Leoben meets Starbuck, he doesn't seem to immediately recognize her, but quickly comes up with her callsign. Then he is apparently struck with a profound realization and says something like, "Oh, now it all makes sense!" You could argue that he is simply fitting her into the reports he has heard about Starbuck and the raider and whatnot. But to me it seems like it was more profound, like a revelation about her role in the cycle of time or religion. I think Leoben realizes right then that Starbuck is a Cylon, that she is one of the remaining models previously unknown by Leoben. It's this big a mind-frack that Leoben seems to have there.

4. The cycle repeats, but the roles change. Leoben says that maybe the previous time (or was it the next time) he was the interrogator and Starbuck was in his place.

5. Roslin has visions, including of the future. I'm about 90% sure Roslin has a chip implant, just like I'm 99% sure Baltar does, and so I've nearly taken Roslin off my list of Cylon suspects. I'm also pretty sure that the chip implant was there from at least the start of this episode, and so the implant (possibly wirelessly accessed by Leoben) was influencing Roslin's dreams and giving her visions. Where did the chip come from? Everyone points the finger at Dr. Cottle. Maybe, but Doral was on Colonial One with Roslin right when she became president. Now, how did Roslin see the future? Leoben claimed to Starbuck that he could see the future. Maybe he can. Or it may have been a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy of Leoben's. Once spaced, Leoben's consciousness probably transferred into the chip in Roslin's head. See also my Star Trek II and III post in the Cylon forum (Roslin = McCoy, Leoben = Spock, Starbuck = Kirk, and so now Roslin has Leoben's "katra.")

6. Adama is a Cylon. This still keeps me up at night. I think there is some truth to it, but what? Lee Adama is the most likely suspect, because of his Greek god callsign. Maybe Zak too. Switched at birth with Adama's real children? But not Commander Adama. Also, if Leoben is now living in Roslin's head, he may die if she dies. (Internal Six has implied to Baltar that she dies if he dies.) If Leoben truthfully meant that Lee Adama is a Cylon, but he wanted Roslin to misinterpret him and conclude that Commander Adama is a Cylon, because perhaps Commander Adama represents a mortal danger to Roslin (and thus soon to Leoben's "katra"), then, well, I think that would just "tickle Leoben pink."

[ViperChickKaliyla]

Leoben says that maybe the previous time (or was it the next time) he was the interrogator and Starbuck was in his place.

That I just thought might refer to Starbuck's history of getting herself tossed in the brig.... ;D

[Ouiser]

MHall said:

6. Adama is a Cylon. This still keeps me up at night. I think there is some truth to it, but what? Lee Adama is the most likely suspect, because of his Greek god callsign. Maybe Zak too.

If Zak were the cylon it might explain how the cylon-prisoner knew so much about Starbuck, although I suppose the same connection could be drawn to Lee. I hadn't even considered that to be a possibility.

Well, my foot was just attacked by a ferret so I completely lost my train of thought. Lee and/or Zak as cylons could really be interesting, though.