Rain

[mjm800]

ladyrheena said:

Wonder what kind of intelligence levels the centurions DO possess...

I think they are like the Raider when Boomer said you need to treat it more like a pet. They are loyal and obedient, they do not complain and they never ask questions, the only do exactly as they are instructed. I do not believe that the Centurions have the capacity to counterman their orders or to improvise (much), which is why humans can defeat them by doing the unexpected.

Perhaps they can learn from mistakes, such as if a Centurion is ambushed they would think twice about entering a similar situation, but I do not think that they can devise an attack or defense on their own and there does not appear to be a rank structure among them (no Gold Cylon ) just the Human Cylons at the top and the Centurions at the bottom

[martok2112]

An interesting point which leads me to believe that somewhere down the road..assuming that the new series goes into multiple seasons...the Centurions' intelligence levels will be proven to have been greatly understated...and that there might be some kind of internal conflict between the Centurions, and the human-Cylons...the machines rise...overthrow their humanoid masters, and wage their own war...not only against the Colonials, but against the Human-Cylons.

Just a thought,
Respectfully offerred,
Martok2112

[mjm800]

martok2112 said:

An interesting point which leads me to believe that somewhere down the road..assuming that the new series goes into multiple seasons...the Centurions' intelligence levels will be proven to have been greatly understated...and that there might be some kind of internal conflict between the Centurions, and the human-Cylons...the machines rise...overthrow their humanoid masters, and wage their own war...not only against the Colonials, but against the Human-Cylons.

Just a thought,
Respectfully offerred,
Martok2112

Good point and this is actually something I have thought about and I believe that the Human Cylons intentionally programmed the Centurions with limited abilities for the very reason you outline above.

The Cylons rebelled against their creator; therefore, who is to say what the Cylons create would not one day rebel. This is why other than their new look and quickness I do not think that the new Centurions are any smarter than their predecessors.

[Ioraptor]

I'm not sure if the centurians could or would rebel....but we are seeing evidence of factions within the human-Cylons. What if that division leads to civil war? What if it already did? The Cylons have been gone for forty years. Who can say what happened in that time.

The limitations of the centurians might be designed in by the human-Cylons. Sure, make them fast and tough but not TOO SMART.

I'm sure if you asked them why, they would say god told them to do it.

[Alan]

mjm800 said:

I believe that the Human Cylons intentionally programmed the Centurions with limited abilities for the very reason you outline above.

Except that the "chrome toaster" models came FIRST, and the humaniform models came AFTER!


"What if we make a really sexy model? That would be cool!"

[mjm800]

Alan said:

Except that the "chrome toaster" models came FIRST, and the humaniform models came AFTER!

We do not know that. We have no idea what the Cylons the Colonials built looked like. The Colonials did not build Raiders, or Basestars for they Cylons to attack with, yet the Cylons had these in the first Cylon War. I suspect that the original Cylons were much different and that the Cylons built the Centurion model as their solider.

Therefore, there was a Cylon model that existed before the Chrome Toaster…maybe.

[Alan]

mjm800 said:

We do not know that. We have no idea what the Cylons the Colonials built looked like.

After learning that modern Cylons have human appearance, Baltar comments that "the last time anybody saw a Cylon, they looked like walking chrome toasters."

Adama and Tigh (who both fought the Cylons forty years ago during the first war) are surprised to find out that Cylons look like humans now.

This tells us that the chrome-toaster models came before the humaniform models. It's possible that there were other models before the chrome-toasters, but they certainly didn't look human.

The Colonials did not build Raiders, or Basestars

Why are you assuming that? It's entirely possible that the colonials were using Cylons as their military forces, just as our modern military is depending more and more upon unmanned units today. The US military is building stuff like Predator drones and cruise missiles. Why couldn't the colonials have built the first Raiders?

[mjm800]

Alan said:

This tells us that the chrome-toaster models came before the humaniform models. It's possible that there were other models before the chrome-toasters, but they certainly didn't look human.

That is what I am saying. I am not saying that the human Cylons came first because we know they did not. But we do not know what the first Cylons looked liked as we only know that the ones the Colonials fought looked like chrome toaster, and I suggest that the Cylons who rebelled were robot's but not Centurion's. The Chrome Toasters were built by the higher thinking machines which rebelled. Of course, there is no evidence to support this theory.

I whole heartedly agree with everything you are saying and it is entirely possible that the Colonials built a robotic force to serve as their army.

I can only go by what we were told and that is that the Cylons were built to make life easier on the twelve colonies, therefore, that suggests and manual labor type drone, and yes, perhaps a military component. Having said that I just do not think that the Colonials built huge automated Basestars housing hundreds of Raiders and Centurions, at some point the rebelling Cylons were able to manufacture these ships and machines to sever their war effort. Much like in Terminator, human built the early versions and the machines took those designs and improved upon them.

****Edited*****

OK, sorry but I have been re-thinking this and I remembered that in TOS Boxey asked Apollo where did the Cylons come from and he said that they were the robot army of a long dead race (paraphrase).

Therefore, perhaps Moore used that premise and rather the Cylons being the robot army of a long dead race, they were the robot army of humanity.

[Alan]

mjm800 said:

Therefore, we have to conclude that the colonies saw each other as rivals and there is just no evidence to prove or disprove that assumption.

Sure there is! Remember (from "Bastille Day") that Sagitaron was systematically oppressed for centuries by other colonies. Furthermore we know that there was a domestic "freedom fighter" movement that had popular support and destroyed at least one government building.

Also, we know (from the miniseries) that there are black market arms dealers within the colonies, and they even deal in military-grade weapons including warheads. Arms dealers cannot exist without a market, so there must be substantial armed conflict occuring somewhere.

[mattw65]

mjm800 said:

We do not know that. We have no idea what the Cylons the Colonials built looked like. The Colonials did not build Raiders, or Basestars for they Cylons to attack with, yet the Cylons had these in the first Cylon War. I suspect that the original Cylons were much different and that the Cylons built the Centurion model as their solider.

Therefore, there was a Cylon model that existed before the Chrome Toaster…maybe.

mjm800 said:

That is what I am saying. I am not saying that the human Cylons came first because we know they did not. But we do not know what the first Cylons looked liked as we only know that the ones the Colonials fought looked like chrome toaster, and I suggest that the Cylons who rebelled were robot's but not Centurion's. The Chrome Toasters were built by the higher thinking machines which rebelled. Of course, there is no evidence to support this theory.

I can only go by what we were told and that is that the Cylons were built to make life easier on the twelve colonies, therefore, that suggests and manual labor type drone, and yes, perhaps a military component.

Having said that I just do not think that the Colonials built huge automated Basestars housing hundreds of Raiders and Centurions, at some point the rebelling Cylons were able to manufacture these ships and machines to sever their war effort.

Much like in Terminator, human built the early versions and the machines took those designs and improved upon them.

We all, myself included, have seemed to assume that the Chrome Toaster was the original Cylon created by the Colonials.

The original Cylon could have been, as 'mjm800' suggests, just worker unit like in "The Second Renaissance" from "The Animatrix" that later went on to be given higher and higher AI.

In "The Second Renaissance" the 'War Droid' wasn't built until far later on.

[mjm800]

Alan said:

Sure there is! Remember (from "Bastille Day") that Sagitaron was systematically oppressed for centuries by other colonies. Furthermore we know that there was a domestic "freedom fighter" movement that had popular support and destroyed at least one government building.

Also, we know (from the miniseries) that there are black market arms dealers within the colonies, and they even deal in military-grade weapons including warheads. Arms dealers cannot exist without a market, so there must be substantial armed conflict occuring somewhere.

I realized that and I took it out but you got me first. Yes, you are correct there is evidence of armed conflict. However, this is sort of side tracking because it really does not related to my earlier assumption and that is that the early versions of Cylons did not look like the Centurions. That there was another model which became sentient and they built the Centurions and in turn evolved to become the human Cylons while leaving the Centurion in their subservient role.

[mjm800]

mattw65 said:

We all, myself included, have seemed to assume that the Chrome Toaster was the original Cylon created by the Colonials.

Here is my twisted and clearly flawed logic: ;D

I say this because the Centurions are by Human Cylon standards lesser machines. If the Chrome Toasters were the original Cylons why would they evolved themselves into Humans looking Cylons and keep a version similar of their early form. Would we (humans) create a robotic Neanderthal? In a sense that is what they have done unless they always had the lower functioning Centurion as a servant of a higher-thinking Cylon who has implemented upgrades over time.

I suspect that the Cylons do not even see the Centurions as Cylons at all, they are machines unable to see the world as they do and they do not possess a soul.

[mattw65]

mjm800 said:

Here is my twisted and clearly flawed logic: ;D

I say this because the Centurions are by Human Cylon standards lesser machines. If the Chrome Toasters were the original Cylons why would they evolved themselves into Humans looking Cylons and keep a version similar of their early form. Would we (humans) create a robotic Neanderthal? In a sense that is what they have done unless they always had the lower functioning Centurion as a servant of a higher-thinking Cylon who has implemented upgrades over time.

I suspect that the Cylons do not even see the Centurions as Cylons at all, they are machines unable to see the world as they do and they do not possess a soul.

But do we really know that the Human Cylons view Centurions like this.

IMO its obvious that Centurions are 'cheaper' to produce than Human Cylons, unless they are cloned like in Star Wars Episode 2 and have accelarated growth, but even then it would take a few years to produce a fully grown one.

Personally I don't think the term 'evolved' cannot be used for Cylons in the same manner that we would use it in 'man evolved from apes'.

From other threads many think that there will be something/one different but similar to both the Human Cylon and Centurion.

We may find out then.

[mjm800]

mattw65 said:

But do we really know that the Human Cylons view Centurions like this.

No we do not, but Boomer who we know is a Cylon suggested that the chief would have better luck if he treated the Raider like a pet, which certainly would suggest that the Human Cylons do view the other models quite differently from how they view themselves.

[mattw65]

mjm800 said:

No we do not, but Boomer who we know is a Cylon suggested that the chief would have better luck if he treated the Raider like a pet, which certainly would suggest that the Human Cylons do view the other models quite differently from how they view themselves.

The Chief is used to dealing with machines. IMO Boomer was telling him that if he treated it/worked on it/nursed it like he would a dog/cat/horse rather than how he would work on a Viper then he would have better results. IMO