Ep 3 - Bastille Day

[caseOrange]

ViperTech said:

To be quite honest, as we do not know the nature of Zarek's prior "terrorist" actions, we can't say that these actions are just or unjust. Therefore, it is best to look at his present actions. Basically, he uses extreme measures to bring to light the fact that Rosilin was not technically elected. This makes the current government illegimate in regards to the law. However, even Zarek's actions do not have the best intentions.

At one point, Dualla mentions that he blew up a government building.

If we are to assume that the Colonies' system of government is similiar to the American system (for example, an elected president who appoints a cabinet), then Roslin is the legitimate president. The Colonials obviously have a plan for a continuation of government in case of catastrophes which includes a line of succession in case the president is killed. At the very least, Roslin is a "lame duck" president. At most, she is in charge of preserving humanity.

ViperTech said:

As Lee soon finds out, Zarek would just as soon martyr himself, causing massive uprisings against Rosilin's government, which would cause a cycle of violence leading to chaos. This is where Zarek crosses the line, in my view, this is where he becomes a danger.

My point exactly. In BSG, once you become a danger, you become a danger to the survival of humanity, IMO.

ViperTech said:

The people have to be as vigilant as Zarek, as protective as Rosilin, and as well informed as Apollo in order for a democracy to work. Zarek has every right to be weary. Rosilin has every right to defend her species. Only a wealth of information, that Apollo has, can both sides be reconciled and a comprise be found. It is this compromise that allows for a balance between security and freedom.

Very well said, Viper Tech! Very good insight!

[13thCylon]

All great points, so far! We still don't know what kind of man Zarek really is! Definitely a great writing job!

I realize that this ep & Zarek in general has stirred up some feelings. I hope that they don't polarize the posters on this board the way the people are here in the U.S. right now! Anyway, "Bastille Day" was an interesting examination of people & their relationship with government. Here's some quotes by Thomas Jefferson that I think apply to this episode :

"The people are in truth the only legitimate proprietors of the soil and government." T.J. - 1813

"It is the people, to whom all authority belongs." T.J. - 1821

"The ultimate arbiter is the people of the Union." T.J. - 1823

"Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." T.J. - 1776

"The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces must be submitted to." T.J. - 1823

"The boisterous sea of liberty is never without a wave." T.J. - 1820

Just a few quotes by a man who was actively involved in a revolution & the subsequent creation of a nation.

[ViperTech]

"At one point, Dualla mentions that he blew up a government building."- caseOrange

What I meant by not knowing who Zarek was was that we don't know what his intentions were for the bombing. We don't know what kind of goals he was trying to achieve. As already mentioned the people are split on his "terrorist" actions. Billy believes he is a freedom fighter, while Dualla is sure he is a terrorist. If this is the state of the Colonial population then we truly don't know enough to make an informed decision.

Rosilin in my opinion is a quite capable leader. She never expects to become President on the day the Cylons, she is only on Caprica to oversee the decommissioning of the Galactica, however when she assumes command as the ranking officer of the Cabinent, she proves her ability to lead. When Doral questions that ability she proves it by organizing a renovation of the cargo hold for passengers. She proves her leadership ability again by organizing the rescue mission which gathered the fleet. Even Adama follows Rosilin's order when she suggests that they run. In 33, she proves herself decisiveness again, when she made the call to have the Olympic Carrier destroyed. A choice she did not make lightly. In Water, she is a commanding prescense in the briefing room, causing Adama to break protocol allowing his officers to speak "off the record." To say that Rosilin is an incapable is a bit of a stretch, she is respected by Adama and those within her small Cabinent.

The riots that she faces were not caused by her lack of leadership. Nobody, not even Adama, could have predicted that the Galactica's water supply would have been sabotaged. As neither Clinton or GW Bush could have truly predicted the Oklahoma City Bombing and 9/11 attack, respectively. Both presidents did, however, have to deal with the effects of these disasters, as Rosilin has to deal with the water shortage. She is not responsible for the bombing!

The difference between the military and civilian populations in response to the shortage should be obvious. In order for a sovereignty to be defended an organized military is required. The crew of the Galactica does not have the luxury of rioting. The civilian population is organized only under the banner of the Colonies of Kobol, they lack a police force to maintain order. The fact there are riots in the civilian population proves that the military is not in control, if it were then the riots would have been quelled earlier, the leaders killed. As Adama states, the military cannot act as the government because if the military becomes the police force than the people become enemies of the state.

Rosilin and Adama share power. She represents the sovereignty known as the Colonies of Kobol, this consists of the remaining survivors found in the rescue effort, as president it is her duty to protect and maintain order within the sovereignty. Adama is the military prescense, as no sovereignty will be able to survive without protection from outside influences, the Cylons in this case. It is his duty to protect the fleet, the soverignty of the Colonies, from the Cylons. He, however, is not the sovereign; he is not President. So it truly is Rosilin's duty to protect the species because the species is the remainder of the sovereignty of the Colonies, in order to do this she must utilize the military powers, not unlike the US president's power to act as Commander-in-Chief.

This relationship is seen in practically every episode. At no point has Adama gone over Rosilin's head. In the miniseries, he follows her orders and ran. When she gave the order to destroy the Olympic Carrier, Apollo willing follows her orders. Adama even makes sure to provide Rosilin with a ceremony the first time she steps aboard the Galactica as President, despite his dislike for pomp and circumstance. These steps would not have been taken if her status of president was not illegimate.

Rosilin does not have a constituency, however, because in order to have a constituency one must be elected. She assumes control through order of succession, under the Articles. She is, in fact, only an Acting President serving out President Adar's term because of the invasion, as Apollo states at the end of Bastille Day. This is not unlike the law written in the United States Constitution. As Wikipedia states: "The death, resignation or removal of the President. In this case a Vice President acting as President would succeed to the office. Any other officer acting as President, however, would (per current federal law) serve out the remainder of the presidential term as Acting President." This means that Rosilin's presidency is quite legal within the Articles and in the Constitution.

We will have to see if she remains in power when elections begin. Zarek is a very influential man, so it won't be a faux high school class election. In fact, I hope Zarek states his case elequently, because personally I'm curious about his politics. If his book was banned he must have had mighty powerful ideas, those that challenged the status quo within the Colonies. His views should be heard.

"The American's are right about one thing:
Live free or die."- ashoka1

But it was also Ben Franklin who said that there is no security without freedom.

Links of interest on Lines of Succession and the Constition in the USA:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_President_of_the_United_States

www.usconstitution.net/consttop_succ.html

[Ioraptor]

Damn, you guys beat me to all the best posts.
Pretty good episode, serious grist for the conversation mill.

I'll say this, they did an excellent job of portraying a "Nelson Mandela" type character. Richard Hatch as Tom Zarek captured all the philosophical controversy of Nelson Mandela in a 1 hour episode no less.

[ViperTech]

Ioraptor said:

Damn, you guys beat me to all the best posts.
Pretty good episode, serious grist for the conversation mill.

I'll say this, they did an excellent job of portraying a "Nelson Mandela" type character. Richard Hatch as Tom Zarek captured all the philosophical controversy of Nelson Mandela in a 1 hour episode no less.

Yeah, thats the nice thing about this show it doesn't take side either way, just seems to present all the sides to the issue. If we wanted to we could analyze the nature of terrorism through the Cylons or Zarek. We could take a look at the pressures of being a country's executive officer through Rosilin. We could as always analyze the interaction between the military and the executive branch through Rosilin and Adama. The list goes on and on, aside from the obvious motifs of love, paternalism, and desperation. Its like the Twilight Zone, but without Rod Serling and in space with chrome toasters...

[caseOrange]

Ioraptor said:

I'll say this, they did an excellent job of portraying a "Nelson Mandela" type character. Richard Hatch as Tom Zarek captured all the philosophical controversy of Nelson Mandela in a 1 hour episode no less.

Considering Dualla's line, it seems like Nelson Mandela meets Timothy McVeigh.

[caseOrange]

Blade said:

IMO 'Bastille Day' is the weakest of all the episodes to date (UK on ep 11)

i have to say that "Act of Contrition" made me forget all about "Bastille Day". Not changing my opinion that i thought "Bastille Day" was a good episode, but out of the first 4 episodes that we've seen in the U.S., it was the least memorable.

[Dangermouse]

caseOrange said:

i have to say that "Act of Contrition" made me forget all about "Bastille Day". Not changing my opinion that i thought "Bastille Day" was a good episode, but out of the first 4 episodes that we've seen in the U.S., it was the least memorable.

After seeing all 13, I still think "Water" is by far the weakest. BD is good, but not in my top half.

[joemc72]

caseOrange said:

Considering Dualla's line, it seems like Nelson Mandela meets Timothy McVeigh.

Those were my thoughts exactly.

[martok2112]

Well folks, I finally got to see my second new series episode, and that one be this one...Bastille Day.

OH MY GOD!!!

This episode ROCKED!

Richard Hatch, my hat is off to him. His acting sent chills up my spine. Intense! I cannot say enough good about him.

Now, some of the things that a lot of people found annoying (like Boxey) , I found to be a laugh riot. I think of Boxey as the "team mascot". Starbuck kicked astrums in this episode. She also seems to have adopted Boxey in a way. I liked how she still stands up to Colonel Tigh, but now seems to be trying to bridge the gap in their professional and personal relationship. It still has a ways to go, but I think she is starting to lighten up some.

Tigh's confliction with alcohol was hilarious. It made me think of the scene in Lethal Weapon when Martin Riggs is having difficulty killing himself.. it was meant to be serious, but it came off unintentionally comedic.

His little chat with Tyrol and Callie about the ice moon's contents was great. "A couple of lemons and we can make lemonade."

I saw NO shortcomings in this episode. Everyone just completely ate up their roles.

Honestly, I literally laughed, and shouted out during the episode, and at its resolution, I practically cried.

Tyrol ribbing Cally about her injuries and duty status at the end was great. I think the flight hands are gonna be crowd pleasers for this show. I love how the new Battlestar Galactica gives them their moments in the spotlight...it's not just about hotshot pilots and the upper echelons.

33 and Bastille Day are the only eps I have seen of the new Battlestar Galactica so far ...and I must say, the miniseries was great, 33 was an excellent continuation of the mini, but Bastille Day made me a believer.

Apollo kicked astrums as a warrior. And when he shot Cally's tormentor, I jumped up out of my seat and roared my approval. HELL YEAH, APOLLO! HELL YEAH!

This episode was a lot of fun for me. And again, seeing Richard Hatch and his intensity of acting chops....truly worth repeated viewings. If you are a fan of Richard Hatch, you will love this episode.


"I am Tom Zarek, and today is the first day of the new era."

SO SAY WE ALL!

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[caseOrange]

martok2112 said:

33 and Bastille Day are the only eps I have seen of the new Battlestar Galactica so far

Did you miss "Water"?

[martok2112]

caseOrange said:

Did you miss "Water"?

I miss quite a few eps, as i do not have cable. I have cable internet..but no tv reception.

[caseOrange]

martok2112 said:

I miss quite a few eps, as i do not have cable. I have cable internet..but no tv reception.

Well, luckily TNS starts every episode with a "Last time on BSG..." intro. And the intros are pretty comprehensive.

At the rate tv shows are being packaged into season-by-season dvds, i'm sure it won't be long after the 1st season runs in the U.S. that BSG will be out on dvd.

[martok2112]

caseOrange said:

Well, luckily TNS starts every episode with a "Last time on BSG..." intro. And the intros are pretty comprehensive.

At the rate tv shows are being packaged into season-by-season dvds, i'm sure it won't be long after the 1st season runs in the U.S. that BSG will be out on dvd.

[Darth Marley]

martok2112 said:

I miss quite a few eps, as i do not have cable. I have cable internet..but no tv reception.

I thought the DVD fairy sent you a care package from the Great White North.