Ep 3 - Bastille Day

[Xenu]

The Cally rape scene was cut out. All that was shown was the guy with his ear bit off. Cally was shown as being shot.

I believe that was all that was ever shown, wasn't it? I don't remember anything different in the UK version...

[ah-chie]

kingfish said:

IMHO Bastille Day is the worst episode to date. 33 looked better.

In other words...

"Ohhhhh... What a world! What a world!"
- Wicked Witch of the West (as she was melting away)

Ron Moore is the one with the "ruby slippers" now!

[caseOrange]

The only reason i labeled Zarek as a terrorist is because i think Apollo got him dead to rights when he said what Zarek really wanted was a bloodbath. There was no other plan but martyrdom for the prisoners that would eventually spark an upheaval of civil order within the fleet.

i don't agree with Apollo when he says that Zarek is doing it partially because he has been out of the spotlight for a while (so to speak). i believe Zarek really believes in what he is doing. However, he has chosen a bad time to do it (if there ever is.a right time to do it).

i was also the one, though, that thought they should have left the prison ship behind on the jump to RA. If Cammie the Chicken Pie Girl (as me and my friends like to call her) has to die by the Cylons, why not prisoners? Although, i do understand that Roslin had to do it--she would not be taken seriously as a legitimate "president" of what's left of the Colonials with that kind of uncivilized act perpertrated at the beginning of her presidency.

Still, where's the humanity? Where's the chicken pie?? What the hell is chicken pie?!

[ViperPilotMomma]

Hmmm?! Chicken PotPie maybe?

VPM

[caseOrange]

ViperPilotMomma said:

Hmmm?! Chicken PotPie maybe?

VPM

We discussed that idea, too, but decided that there's so much about Caprica and Colonial humans that are Earth-y, that it seems that Moore is likely introducing us to an important Caprican cultural dish.

What i mean is that humans on Caprica are basically us. They aren't (for the most part) wearing clothes straight out of The Jetsons. They still have baby strollers, tennis shoes, and they construct their buildings from the ground-up. But they say "Frak". And they cut off the edges of their papers. And their playing cards, too! Combining these facts with fuzzy logic and groundless reasoning, i have come to the conclusion that chicken pie is close to chicken pot pie, but has a lot more chicken in it.

[CrimsonCrystal]

I loved it.

This episode is up there with 33. I really liked this one because of the political thought journey. Go Lee!

[Mustex]

I think BD was intended as a parody of both the BSG community, and Sci-fi Channel. Think about it:

1. "Who voted for Laura Roslin?"="How did Bonnie Hammer get control of the Sci-fi Channel."

2. "I read your book, and it changed my view on alot of things."+the fact that the book was banned="I read your book, which wasn't a popular discesion with others involved with the series, and it changed my view on a continuations as a possibility."

3. "You'll get your election."+the fact that it's in seven months="My story lasts for up to seven years. After that, you'll get your continuation."

4. "You've committed me to holding elections within the year."="I've made a closed-door deal with Hatch to make a continuation after TNS wraps up. Unfortunately, unlike Apollo I can't tell this to the president, or announce it in any way she'll find out, because Hammer'll have my head on a platter."

5. "We need you to help resupply on water."="We need BSG to help resupply Sci-fi Friday after Hammer canceled everything."

6. "We've jammed his transmissions."="We've edited his interviews."

7. "Zarek wants to go out in a blaze of glory."="Hatch justed wanted attention at first."

I think the idea of a "closed-door" agreement is lended legitimacy by the fact that they took shots at Hammer. You don't build PR by insulting your boss.

[Ioraptor]

That ROCKED! 4 out of 5 on my score card.
Would have given it a 5 if they had shown us a scene of the crews mining water on the moon.

But thats just me..... I'm science fiction nerdy like that.

[ashoka1]

This was yet another great episode.
The interesting thing is, this show didn't answer any
questions. It presented situations and asked you only
to consider them.

Quantitative:

Obviously, the main focus was on Tom Zarek. What an
introduction!


"Thank you for your offer. We respectfully... decline."

Then we see the deveopment of the character of Tom Zarek.

He rallies an entire jail house. He has an admirer
in Rosalyn's secretary Billy Keikeya. A guard even turns
for no other reason than his admiration for Zarek's
moral currency.

But we also see the polar opposite. Lee Adama believes
that Zarek's cause is right but his use of violence is
wrong. Duala resents his bombing of Government
buildings. Cally... is well... sleepy.

At the end of the show, nothing is resolved. The writers
don't choose a black or white ending. While you have
Lee lecturing Zarek on his tactics, you also see Zarek
achieving incredible gains due to his tactics.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Qualitative:

This show is very inclusive. Some conservatives
can argue that Zarek is an evil terrorist who would
sacrifice himself and his men for vanity(according to Lee
Adama).

While some progressives can argue that Zarek
would have achieved nothing unless he had raised the
stakes.... A Government task force was sent in to
assasinate him, so in fact Zarek was right to recognize
it and have his men fight to the death. Zarek was doing
what the military was doing: sacrificing the few for the
greater good.


---------------------------------------------------------------

I take the position that the prisoners are Zarek's
troops. They've agreed to follow his orders willingly.
So, as the commander commands, the soldiers obey.

Zarek believed that exposing the barbarity of the
government and military would wake-up the other
Colonials. This was the basis for Gandhi's non-violence
philiosophy. Gandhi believed that the goal of non-
violent resistance was to shame the opressors. No one
respects a bully... even if they are part of the empire.
Of course, Zarek doesn't believe in Non-Violent
resistance, but his end was the same... expose the
government and military as the dictators that they are.

It was funny watching Lee scolding Zarek.
1) For using violent resistance.
Yeah Lee... you're going to defeat the Cylons through petitions alone right?
2) For sacrificing others for his greater mission.
Okay Lee... not only did you run from battle and leave your own people to die.... you even fired on your own people so you could save yourself.

And Zarek is vain for thinking of the greater good?
At least he would have stayed for the blood bath.

Zarek obviously believes that the government is unjust.
My guess is that he sees the current government like
the one he fought on Sagitarian. According to Billy
Keikeya, they were oppressive and viciously expolited
the people.

So naturally, he sees Rosalyn and Adama as the enemy.
And, Rosalyn confirmed this by sending in her DEATH
SQUADS simply because she didn't want Zarek as a
political opponent (against Cmdr Adama's wishes).

What was Zarek supposed to do? Sit back and say:
"yes, we're political prisoners, some stole toasters,
few of us murdered, Most of us are up for parole...
WE'LL BE YOUR SLAVES!. We'll even accept an unjust
government. We'll give up on water. We'll work for you,
get out, then be poor refugees who serve the needs of
a military Junta."

Zarek's soldiers and supporters wouldn't respect him
one bit if he took that route.

As Malcolm X said:
"He got the peace prize, we got the problem.... If I'm
following a general, and he's leading me into a battle,
and the enemy tends to give him rewards, or awards, I
get suspicious of him. Especially if he gets a peace
award before the war is over."

Zarek's struggle is long from over. While Rosalyn, Old
man Adama, and Lee only have to worry about a few
prisoners and the Cylons....
Zarek has to worry about the military, President and the
Cylons wanting him and his cause eliminated 'by any
means necessary'.

Viva La Raza. Viva Commandante Zarek!.
And a sincere 'frak You!' to the dictator Rosalyn.
Can't wait for the elections!

[caseOrange]

There's less than 50,000 humans left from the Colonies. They are going to be housed for probably a long time on a fleet of ships that are out in deep space, with no home world, and an enemy sworn to their destruction hunting them constantly. They are running out of water and their only hope is to mine it. And, yes, a bunch of prisoners just found out where they are on the food chain.

What better time to have a revolution! Just because they've been imprisoned for a while doesn't mean they can't easily takeover the Galactica and Colonial One and fight the new and improved Cylons. Who cares if they split the last of humanity into political factions, thereby distracting everyone involved from the real task at hand which is to pick up the pieces and reorganize into some kind of self-reliant and self-protecting society.

Besides, humans can't need water that badly...

Viva la Genocide!

[ViperTech]

ashoka1 said:

Zarek's struggle is long from over. While Rosalyn, Old
man Adama, and Lee only have to worry about a few
prisoners and the Cylons....
Zarek has to worry about the military, President and the
Cylons wanting him and his cause eliminated 'by any
means necessary'.

Viva La Raza. Viva Commandante Zarek!.
And a sincere 'frak You!' to the dictator Rosalyn.
Can't wait for the elections!

I completely interpreted this episode differently, which I guess is the product of great writing. I saw it more as a way of saying that freedom and security and two paradigms that have to be balanced, and that they are interdependent, without freedom there is no security. This why Apollo makes an oath to uphold the Articles at the end and why he sough compromise between Zarek and Rosilin.

To be quite honest, as we do not know the nature of Zarek's prior "terrorist" actions, we can't say that these actions are just or unjust. Therefore, it is best to look at his present actions. Basically, he uses extreme measures to bring to light the fact that Rosilin was not technically elected. This makes the current government illegimate in regards to the law. However, even Zarek's actions do not have the best intentions.

As Lee soon finds out, Zarek would just as soon martyr himself, causing massive uprisings against Rosilin's government, which would cause a cycle of violence leading to chaos. This is where Zarek crosses the line, in my view, this is where he becomes a danger. Neither Ghandi nor Martin Luther King, incited riots, much to the point, they organized lawful protests. When King gave his Dream speech, he never went out his way to bring the US government down. Much the opposite, both sought reform within the system, a system with Zarek seems to have forgotten.

To the same ends, it is hard to truly judge whether Rosilin's actions were just or not, as well. In some respects she has every right to not negotiate with terrorists. She also has to maintain peace within the Fleet, for the sake of the human species. However, a brief dialogue would have been somewhat more advantageous than calling in the Marines immediately. This however, is a matter of retrospect, because of Zarek got his blood bath, he would become a martyr. Even Commander Adama suggested talking to Zarek first. Of course, neither Zarek nor Rosilin would enter into negotiations, one seeking to martyrdom and the other seeking the protection of her species. Though there is something that should be noted, Zarek is using to force to achieve his own ends, while Rosilin is committing forces to uphold order. In terms of free speech, Zarek is yelling fire in a crowded theater. This doesn't mean that Rosilin should have sought peaceful means of ending the dispute, despite Zarek's lack of communication.

This is invariably where Apollo's comprise comes into play. If force is used too much, even to protect the species, eventually there will be a dictatorship as Zarek suggests. However, if force is not used, there runs the risk of chaos, as Rosilin suggests. It also is where the idea of social contract comes into play, in the form of the Articles. The people are the ones that give the government its power and legitmacy. This is spelled out in the form of a Constitution which states what the government can and cannot do to the people. Zarek has every right to worry, however, he has no right to use extreme measures to prove his point. Rosilin has every right to protect the refugees, however she has to recognize the law. This is the point Apollo makes when he mentions that there would be elections ANYWAY in seven months.

Emergencies do not stop the democratic process. Even during the Vietnam War elections were held and even though the war was widely protested free speech was not fully stifled, a most notable example is the Pentagon Papers scandal. The government tried to prevent the publication of the papers, but eventually the Supreme Court ruled in favor of their printing. Once they were leaked they were fair game. Yet again this the point Apollo makes when he says that once the government forgets the Articles both Rosilin and Adama lose their legitimacy. The people's fundamental rights are not to be suspended because of war or any other reason. In short there is no security without freedom, under the law (Constitution or the Articles.)

The people have to be as vigilant as Zarek, as protective as Rosilin, and as well informed as Apollo in order for a democracy to work. Zarek has every right to be weary. Rosilin has every right to defend her species. Only a wealth of information, that Apollo has, can both sides be reconciled and a comprise be found. It is this compromise that allows for a balance between security and freedom.

[Crashdown]

Just a teeny-tiny point. At the end when Roslin, Adama and Apollo are talking, did Adama and Roslin stike anyone else as seeming really parental? Or is that just me?

[ViperTech]

Crashdown said:

Just a teeny-tiny point. At the end when Roslin, Adama and Apollo are talking, did Adama and Roslin stike anyone else as seeming really parental? Or is that just me?

Yeah, I agree, there was a mommy-daddy thing going on when both of them were chastising Apollo. I think she was even more parental when she sat him down and revealed she had cancer to him. Just made me think that before she sent him off to bed she needed to have a little chat with him, but then again I side with people who think Rosilin has the hots for Apollo. My favorite line from her concerning Lee is when she says, "I like the way Captain Apollo sounds."

[caseOrange]

Crashdown said:

Just a teeny-tiny point. At the end when Roslin, Adama and Apollo are talking, did Adama and Roslin stike anyone else as seeming really parental? Or is that just me?

i got the same impression. Especially when Roslin tells Adama, "He's your son," and Adama replies, "He's your military advisor." This sounds very mommy-and-daddy-ish.

[ashoka1]

Before I begin, I'd like to say that this is a friendly
debate. I don't hold myself in higher or lower regard
than anybody else.

Our personal politics aside, let's look at the practical
situation.

To be quite honest, as we do not know the
nature of Zarek's prior "terrorist" actions, we can't say
that these actions are just or unjust.

You're correct to a degree. But you naturally realize
that the Colonials do believe one way or another.

Duala, Apollo, Cmdr. Adama and Rosalyn are all part of
the institution that Zarek was targetting. They'd have to
be suicidal to support him.

Whereas Billy Keikeya has a more objective view. He's
loyal to Laura but still believes that Zarek's actions were justified.

In fact Laura Rosalyn said of Tom Zarek:
"20 years in prison over a matter of principal"

Neither Ghandi nor Martin Luther King, incited riots, much to the point, they organized lawful protests. When King gave his Dream speech, he never went out his way to bring the US government down. Much the opposite, both sought reform within the system, a system with Zarek seems to have forgotten.

I said that Gandhi and Zarek shared the same
objectives, not the same tactics. Please reread my
previous post. Their objective was to prove that the
opposing side held/exercised power unjustly.

As Lee soon finds out, Zarek would just as soon martyr himself, causing massive uprisings against Rosilin's government, which would cause a cycle of violence leading to chaos. This is where Zarek crosses the line, in my view, this is where he becomes a danger."

There were riots already going on, before Zarek's.
Curnel Tigh at the start of the show:
"Water riots breaking out all over the fleet!"
"Civilians, whiny civy cry babies, can't stand it unless
they get a hot shower everyday"
"Ever see a man die of dehydration Chief? Well let's
hope you never do."

You might as well blame the entire fleet as well as
Zarek for not respecting caring rulers like Tigh and Rosalyn.

Zarek's not causing the problems, he's trying to fix them.

Why are the people rioting?
Why aren't the military personel rioting?
It's because the military is in charge. They know what's
going on, they have a say. People on the Colonial fleet
don't. Rosalyn sucks at her job. The simple fact is,
Commander Adama holds his constituency in line.
He can reassure them. Laura can't.
Laura's incapable of leading her constituency: the fleet.

It's not about power. It's about firing a managment
team for incompetence!

Of course, neither Zarek nor Rosilin would enter into negotiations, one seeking to martyrdom and the other seeking the protection of her species. Though there is something that should be noted, Zarek is using to force to achieve his own ends, while Rosilin is committing forces to uphold order.

Zarek is seeking martyrdom(the loss of his own life) to
spark a change in the decision making branch.

It's his life being sacrificed for a principal.

Whereas Laura Rosalyn is only trying to keep her job.
She wants to sacrifice Tom Zarek to keep power in her
hands. Rosalyn fears unemployment.

Sacrifice vs. Greed... hmmm. Tough decision.

Zarek has every right to worry, however, he has no right to use extreme measures to prove his point.

The American's are right about one thing:
Live free or die.

The fact is, Laura is already a dictator. If anything,
Laura proved it as such when she sent in the Gestapo.

Zarek made his proposal... but what's more interesting is that Laura didn't even consider it.
Zarek's proposal was simple:
"Elections".
Rosalyn:
"Rebellions are contageous. We don't negotiate
with terrorists."

Hmmm... interesting, Rosalyn took power to reperesent
the fleet. Now that she suspects the fleet of supporting Zarek, she fears their wishes.

Can anybody say: power trip?

The people have to be as... protective as Rosalyn

It's not Rosalyn's job to be protective. It's Commander
Adama's job to protect the fleet.

While an election takes place, Adama can be in charge.
1 day of military dictatorship is a decent price to pay for 4 years of legitimate rule.

Rosalyn is a servant to the people who vote for her.
Right now, that's 0. Until that vote happens:

She's just another dictator who claims to be protecting 'the species' while they're in fact
supressing them to hold power.

You can't say the same about Zarek.
He's willing to die for the peoples right to:
support him
or
reject him.
---------------------------------------------------


In conclusion: Rosalyn fears unemployment.