History Repeating itself

[MarkusB]

Can someone please explain a little further this concept that keeps coming up with the cylons and now The Pres and her spiritual advisor? Is it they reach this point and come together with the cylons to make babies and repopulate the species? Is this just from the perspective from the cylons? I didn't here much talk about the cylons when that priest lady was quoting their scripture. Even if this is supposed to come true what about all the technology that they have? Is is all just going to disapear and they will make beautiful colusiums (sp)? This whole concept is a little foggy for me, I'd like to hear some more thoughs on this. Never mind the crazy vision that baltar has at the end of ep 13 when he's with six in that theater.

[XwingRob]

Yeah it confuses me as well.
When it say its repeating itself, does that mean that there was 12 human colonies annilihated, and they all escaped to Earth(or at the very least, a "promised land")?
So therefore, shouldn't the President be saying "Frack Earth" and not trying to find it? Because finding Earth just means in the future billions of lives will end again.

[MarkusB]

Well I'm glad to see I'm not only one.. I was getting worried there for a minute. Maybe I had too many brew before posting that one The horrible spelling is evidence of that.

[MHall]

All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again. So the sacred scrolls tell us. So Leoben tells us. So say we all.

The sacred scrolls tell us that we each have our part to play in the current cycle, like character roles in a hit science fiction show. If we don't play our parts well, there may not be a renewal, much less a sequel. It is similar to the Fates, in Greek mythology.

Suppose the scrolls say your soul will only be saved if you play your part. So then, it matters not whether you live or die. It matters not whether your actions will later cause billions to die. The only way to save your immortal soul (and perhaps that of others) is to play your part in the current cycle.

I do think the writers intend for the viewers to go, "What the frack? Are these people daft? Why do they believe this nonsense? I can't make heads or tails of it!" It is only by seeing aliens treat nonsense as serious religion that we can reexamine the religious tenets of Earth's religions. I do consider BSG to be basically an anti-religion show, with the "bad guys" being the monotheistic ones who are on a genocidal religious crusade. I'm surprised the show gets no flack from religious conservatives (not that I've seen, anyway), while the show does get flack from a few TOS fans.

Back to the scrolls... The scrolls don't say anything explicitly about the Cylons. The scrolls are open to interpretation, though, and clearly the Cylons think the scrolls are talking about them.

The sacred scrolls tell us that a leader will come to lead the 12 tribes to Earth, but that the leader will die before they reach it. Perhaps the Cylons wish to replace the humans, with the Cylons' 12 models taking the role of the 12 tribes. Dr. Gaius Baltar almost has to be the leader whom the Cylons intend to take them to Earth. He is special somehow, with his remembering Kobol, and with his being chosen for breeding with Six. Sorry, Baltar, but the Cylons are going to make sure you die before they get to Earth!

The legends speak of the Arrow of Apollo - thrusting it into the Tomb of Athena will show them the way to Earth. It seems likely that the Cylons already brought the Arrow of Apollo to Kobol, and it didn't work for them, so they put it back in the museum on Caprica and pulled some strings to get the Colonials to do it for them. (Hmmm, which strings... gave them a raider, let them scan the FTL drive of another raider, and then sent orders to their Cylon agent Starbuck, Elosha, or Roslin to make them get the Arrow of Apollo.) I don't think the Arrow of Apollo scans DNA and thus rejected the Cylons. (People have been watching too much Stargate: Atlantis!) However, it may be that a "chosen one" is required... perhaps Gaius Baltar or Lee Adama. Or there may be some religious riddle to figure out, stumping the Cylons but perhaps within Elosha's grasp.

I must admit that my eyes glaze over when people talk about "real" religion, much less fantasy religion, so I wasn't paying as close attention as I should have... what else do the sacred scrolls tell us?

[MarkusB]

Maybe I'm wrong but the cylons leading the humans inthis fashion seems to be speculaion, including the arrow being used by the cylons first. I'm starting to wonder if this "fate" will some how be altered this time around. Kind of like the matrix story. I see alot of simularities between the matrix and BSG. the 12models and 12 tribes....... that's a pretty good catch. I missed that one. I'm wondering at what point the cylons became aware or interested in the scrolls. I'm confident that this spiritual theme will play a major roll in the 2nd series.

Interesting to is why the cylons would choose baltar for mating. Yes he's a genious but a far cry from a roll model from a moral sence. It's halarious listening to six and Baltar go back and forth debating God and his will.

[AgentK7]

MarkusB said:

Maybe I'm wrong but the cylons leading the humans inthis fashion seems to be speculaion, including the arrow being used by the cylons first. I'm starting to wonder if this "fate" will some how be altered this time around. Kind of like the matrix story. I see alot of simularities between the matrix and BSG. the 12models and 12 tribes....... that's a pretty good catch. I missed that one. I'm wondering at what point the cylons became aware or interested in the scrolls. I'm confident that this spiritual theme will play a major roll in the 2nd series.

Interesting to is why the cylons would choose baltar for mating. Yes he's a genious but a far cry from a roll model from a moral sence. It's halarious listening to six and Baltar go back and forth debating God and his will.

I agree, most of this "cylons controlling everything" is a lot of fan speculation. While no doubt, they have setup some of these situations, I don't think they've gone to the extreme that's been speculated.

Most of this speculation comes from Leoben's interrogation with Starbuck and the Roslin's advisor priestess (whose name eludes me).

We know that Leoben bends the truth, if not out and out lies to get whatever reaction he's looking for. The priestess lady is just reading from "Scrolls" which is essentially a religious text. A lot of "truth" from religious text can be obscured over the years and re-interpreted by different people.

This whole history repeats itself scenario could even be compared to Christ's resurrection. If you're not a Christian, and of another faith, you're most likely not going to believe in Judgment Day.

There are other religions in the colonies aren't there?

Regarding Baltar...I just think that the cylons are seriously deluded, and Baltar is part of this delusion (because Six is in "love" with him).

I'm looking forward to new cylons/spys coming out (coughGaetacough) that helps to explain a lot of the coincidences of cylon visits, etc fromthe first series....

[MHall]

From the Associated Press...

Jenita Jeyarajah (mother of a baby who survived the Tsunami after being ripped from her arms) said that as soon as she regains custody of her son, she will fulfill vows to smash 100 coconuts at a temple of the elephant-headed Hindu god Ganesh, offer sweet rice to the warrior god Murugan and kill a rooster for the goddess Kali.

"Then, we'll decide what to do next," her husband said.

I think they will have a chuckle at the Trinity and Judgment Day and other Christian silliness, with the proof in their arms that their prayers work.

I think this kind of view reversal of religion is what Ron Moore has in mind, with the monotheistic cyborgs versus polytheistic humans.

[deleriad]

AgentK7 said:

I agree, most of this "cylons controlling everything" is a lot of fan speculation. While no doubt, they have setup some of these situations, I don't think they've gone to the extreme that's been speculated.

Most of this speculation comes from Leoben's interrogation with Starbuck and the Roslin's advisor priestess (whose name eludes me).

I agree. I think that if the Cylons are controlling everything that that would be very weak. They are definitely trying to achieve something, they do, after all, "have a plan" but it is likely that their plan is not exactly going to plan...

The "Cycle of Time" idea of reincarnating souls is not exactly a work of fiction. Just because it's not an aspect of Christianity doesn't mean that other major religions haven't embraced it. It is often associated with Western Pagan traditions though that may be more of new age reimagining than grounded in actuality.

I have a feeling that one of the ways BSG might go is in exploring (for lack of a better word) Kobolism and Kobolist fundamentalism. At one point Adama says to Roslin "I didn't know you were so religious" and Starbuck's mutiny is informed at least in part by a religious impulse.

For example I wouldn't mind betting that we see a faction of Kobolist fundamentalists who start calling for returns to the "old ways." I suspect we'll also see some colonials who start to turn to Cylon monotheism. And there'll also be those who argue for secularism.

If RDM (and sci-fi) is prepared to be brave and withstand the inevitable howls from the Christian Conservatives in order to explore both the destructive and beneficial elements of religion then BSG could become even more interesting. An exploration of religion, monothesim and polytheism does not have to be inherently anti-religious but it does have to pull no punches. DS9 attempted to explore the impact of religion on society but did so in a Star Trek context and never really felt that interesting. I suspect that BSG may be the forum in which Moore gets to explore this issue 'properly'.

B

[MarkusB]

Good read . BSG is definately putting together some interesting themes. I think this "spiritual" theme -addition sets it apart from other sci-fi's. ( not all) You had to admit, it made Dune and the Matrix more interesting.

[sleeperawaken]

Reference: Scrolls, "all that has happened has happened before, & will happen again", Kobol, cylon/human baby.

First of all, just for kicks, I will tell you that I believe that Adama is a cylon. YES, I know that he got tested, & I believe that he passed with flying colors, regardless of the fact that "everyone passes these days". I don't think he is a time bomb either, he is a good guy, doing a good job, provided he lives after being shot by boomer. To understand my definition of him being a cylon, you have to read to the end, & I think you will get a kick out of this twist.

I am nearly positive I know what is going on. I do not have any insider information, so I can't say that I know. In the episode where Leobon gave his 2 cents, I figured it out, mostly. Everything that has happened in episodes after that, have only solidified & developed my theory.

If I am right, this is a fantastic, well thought out plot, on the level of the first matrix movie, but deeper & more intricate even. Of course it helps that they are not
limited to 2 hours No, I don't think they are all residing inside a computer program, I would be disgusted if they did that. What I think is going on, will produce a mind blowing twist at some point in the story line though, perhaps not until the end of the series.

On the subject of the "scrolls", "Kolob" & the repeated mentioning of a "cycle repeating itself", & "all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again":

First, you need to understand that the ultimate goal of a consciously "aware" robot, is generally to become "alive", in every aspect. This is a continuing theme for many different movies & series. I think a lot of us initially thought that the "human" cylons were just created to infiltrate the humans. I think we have also thought that
the cylons really just want the humans all killed off, and that the cylons are just plain evil. If you've been paying attention, you know it is more than that by now. They
want to be living beings, with souls. This is just the tip of the ice berg though, folks, so follow along.

The cylons are trying to become human, & their quest to look like humans, inside & out, is to fulfill the definition of a living being. However, as close as they are, they do not have a genetic pool, they have to genetically "design" each model. My guess, is that they don't just want one human baby out of the mix either. They are probably using survivors as well to reproduce. Finds like Helo & Baltar are good genetic sources, as both have outstanding qualities for their race. Why bother? Why not just keep making the models they already have? Reproduction is part of the definition of a living thing, & not reproduction by use of a factory or lab. To reproduce randomly & naturally, you need a larger gene pool, otherwise you get kids with 3 arms, 1 arm, or an arm growing out of their head. Also, I think it is a way of becoming one with their creators, in a sense. So why would they destroy their creators? Keep reading.

Also, notice that the organic cylons have the potential to have "feelings". Cylons are not even "exactly" evil. Rather they do not have a concept of "right & wrong", only ambition & an agenda. "Right & Wrong", selfishness, greed, generosity, kindness, are all associated with a being that has "feelings". Without that trait of a living
being, there is only survival, agenda, logic, & perhaps ambition to become more than they are. Cylons are only beginning to have feelings. The closest they have come to having feelings is a sense of survival, ambition, & aggression. We noticed with Boomer, that as she has feelings for various people, she has a sense of right & wrong, guilt, kindness, love... all of that in a cylon body.

Cylon's form of a "soul" right now, is still programming, & eternal life is to have their programming transferred to another body when one body expires. They want the real thing, if there is such a thing. They've even taken on religion, or a form of it. Creating offspring with humans is the next step. So what if they get offspring with humans, & those offspring create more cylon/human children? What is the next step? With all of their memory still intacted, they still know they are cylons, & evolved from robots in some form. The final step, is to forget that piece of information. No more toasters to remind them of their robot origins. Base Stars would be replaced by vessels that are more accommodating for the human form. History is blurred. Cylons have intentionally forgotten that they were ever robots. There were twelve "human" models, with multiple human mates (forced or otherwise), each model representing a new colony. What about the 13th tribe? Oh, those were the other "humans" that left for Earth instead of joining the colonies. Omitted, is that they were fleeing, not wanting to be destroyed, & who they were fleeing from!

A thousand years later, the "new" twelve colonies start making robots again. 500 years later, those new robots rebel, & leave the 12 colonies. The robots are called
cylons. ....one day, they will return.....


......and the cycle continues. All that is happening, has happened before, & will happen again.

So where does this leave the BattleStar Galactica, & their fleet? The current batch of cylons would prefer they wind up dead, they don't want the humans to return some day, and start explaining to the cylons offspring who they are. If they can't kill them off, then they atleast want the humans off in deep, deep space.

Also, it might be mentioned that this repeating cycle, with very similar leaders/characters for each cycle, may be explained partially by chance, that the cycle hit a rhythm with a certain number of generations, which would genetically produce similar personalities, even with similar diseases. Although, a character might be a male for one cycle, a female for another cycle, but with dominate characteristics still showing their face. This is why the scrolls don't seem to indicate gender.

Oh, did I mention, & make it plain enough that Adama, Apollo, Starbuck, & everyone in that fleet is a cylon too? Well, more accurately, cylon/human. They just don't remember their OWN history, and that 2,000 years ago, they were cylons, driving out the "humans".

Likely, there was a first cycle, which would have started with an original batch of humans.

One last note for this super long theory. I find the names of human "Gods" interesting. Apollo, Athena for two that I remember off the top of my head. Apollo is the name of a current dominate human, & Athena was the name of a dominate character in the old series. One definition of a God, is a "creator". The human created the Cylons....hmmmmm.... Maybe Apollo, Athena & the rest of the "Gods" were human survivors, who were fleeing the cylons, & in the process left a sacred "scroll", as a guide for others fleeing at the end of a new cycle.


my 2 cents

[MHall]

I think you're basically right. I like in particular your thesis that they are looking for real immortality through religion, rather than fake immortality through technology.

However, why would, say, Caprica red-coat Doral commit suicide once the new generation is established? Doesn't Six imply suicide is a sin in episode 9? Hmmm, I guess the 12 models may actually expect the new generation to exterminate them, in shades of "all of this has happened before."

There is a cool implication of your thesis... the original 1978 series could have happened in a previous cycle (or possibly a subsequent one)!!!

Alas, I think you crashed and burned in your last paragraph. See my take on Greek influence over on sciffy. Just leave your last paragraph off and it's a better thesis.

[MarkusB]

That's an awesome Theory!

I just don't understand why their record keeping of history would be so Botched. The path of Kobul to Earth doesn't make sence here.

[sleeperawaken]

Okay, maybe the last paragraph is a shot in the dark. I guess I really like to see a mystery be unravelled right down to some pretty serious detail, perhaps I am looking too deep, or without enough information to figure out who or what the Gods in multiple are or were, but I would love to see it explained, especially with finding Kolob recently.

MarkusB,
I actually made an attempt to explain the "Botched" record keeping. As stated below, organic living "cylon" history, as it pertains to evolving from robots, would be forgotten & botched on purpose. The goal of the cylons would be to become completely a living being, physically, & mentally. Part of that process, perhaps a final step, would be to intellionally forget that they evolved from robots. If you knew you were a robot, no matter how much you looked like a human, you could never be psycologically sure you were really alive. So to solve that problem, you "forget".

Yes, the "toasters" would have to go, but the original 12 organic models would not have to be killed off, they'd just have to keep a secret till they died. We know the cylons can lie, so that's not really a problem.

There does have to be an explaination as to where the scrolls came from. If in each "cycle" of repeating history, galactica takes the scrolls along with them, how does the next generation get them from. Either someone from the galactica rag-tag fleet, or the cylons themselves have to leave the scrolls. I have no issue with believing that the cylons may be responsible for the scrolls. It is also equally possible that the fleeing humans finally come to an understanding of how this cycle of time works, & once they get past the shock that they themselves evolved from an earlier batch of cylons, decide to leave a scroll guide for the future generation in 2 thousand years.

The biggest question that is left for me, is what is going on with Earth, if all of this is true? Do the fleeing humans make it to Earth all the time, or some of the time, or never have yet? Maybe there is an Earth in the Battlestar Galactica universe, where only the "first" fleeing "Real" humans made it to Earth, or maybe Earth receives about 45,000 more humans every 2,000 years, or maybe sometimes they make it, sometimes not. I definitely do not have enough information to make an educated guess yet.

If the series lasts long enough, it would be interesting to see a plot develop, say after finding Earth (they shouldn't do this for a while) to stop the cycles. After all, wouldn't it be better if the next generation of the colonies were stopped from building the same robots, that eventually turn on them? This would almost definitely have to happen during the last season of the show, as to conclude that plot line, you would need to see a future generation of Earth, travel to a developing generation of human/cylons, after they have forgotten they are cylons, but before they start building toasters

Anyway, I need to stop thinking so much...LOL.

Can you all tell I am a sci-fi freak...LOL!!!

[VikingBabe]

In Greek mythology, there was only one strand to spin your life "skein" into before it was cut.. Depending on your station, it was Gold, Silver, or base. That was all there was. Your life was spun out, measured and then cut....period. Most acquaint this with the concept of "Karma" as popularily thought...though it isnt completely.

With the Norse Norns, the loom was setup, the design was set but your choices influenced how that design would turn out. A bright tapestry, not so bright or a very dull one. No two were excatly alike though.

"That which was" (Urd:Fate), "That which is" (Verdandi: Being) and "That which Should become" (Skuld: Necessity) are the translations/meantings of their names. Not "Past", "Present", "Future" that are "set" as the Greek ones were.

What choices made in the past, creates the present. However the choices you make in the present change the future in some way. You can make a difference. This is "Orlog". The cautionary name of Skuld (Necessity) is "That which SHOULD become"....not Will become. There is a whole metaphysical world bound up in that difference.

For a fanatic, the security of their faith implies their god or cause is all that matters. It gives them a sense of surety that what will be, will be. "God will provide", "bismallah" or their equivalent. That the choice has been taken out of their hands. They want it out of their hands. So they can take comfort in "What happened before, will happen again". They have a plan because they believe the master plan was all setout in detail long ago. They are sure of it as the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West.

Space has many Suns. Where is "East" or "West" when there is no planet to land on? It is an artifical orientation developed as a traveler's guide. The Cylons missed this jump in Human psychology. Humans can change that orientation out of necessity just as they created it. I am not sure if the Cylons are quite up to that .....yet. Why I believe the Galactica Boomer will show herself to be all too human and make that choice. Something Six and the others might find detrimental in their Master Plan.

Although BSG uses Greek mythology for it's characters just as the old one did. That does not mean it cleaves completely to Greek mythological/religious concepts. Nor am I inferring he may have read of the Norse concept of "Orlog" either. "Karma" is actually more like "Orlog" than Anymore than the Cylons monotheism is strictly Christian, as some posters over on the SciFi boards think. I know what RDM's concept was and these kinds of fanatics can be found in ALL religions and political stripes.

"So it happened before, it will happen again". Will it? We do not know enough about the Scrolls to know all the past history. It is one thing to believe in a closed circle but even rings will split with one end up and the other down. So what should it be?

"Mind only knows what lies near the heart,
It alone sees the depths of the soul,
No worse ill assails the wise than to be
Without inner peace."

[Tato]

Right, so the Wachowski brothers already done a cyclical human vs the machines thing. BSG ending up along the same lines would be a bit too derivative, surely. Every one is a cylon. Hmmmmm.

In the Matrix trilogy there were just too many loose ends. If Zion was destroyed by the machines every cycle, how on earth did the next generation of humans build it up again so quickly, and develop advanced technology?

In the BSG universe a "history repeating itself" set up would also run into numerous inconsistencies. It wouldn;t make for a very good story...unless Moore is even more brilliant than we give him credit for...

Also I just thought of Babylon 5. The return of the "Shadows" as forecast in the myths and legends of the series. And it turned out that the Shadows and the Vorlorns were simply peers who shook up the galaxy on a routine basis.

So in the best stories, something always happens to break the cycle. Is the Galactica escaping with a human fleet that event this time around? It doesn't seem special enough somehow. I don't think you can really attack a FTL equipped race and not expect a few ships to make it out of the combat zone.