Religion in BSG

[Chalcedony]

Peshweri brought up a little Christian numerology wrt the number of Cyclon mimics, and Spassvogel had this to say earlier:

Spassvogel said:

The thing I find intriguing, and maybe this is a theme that's appeared elsewhere in sci-fi, but think about how Baltar represents the so-called "Advanced" thoughts on religion, that is, that there are people who think that only "idiots" and "the brain-dead" would have faith in God. The Cylons, however, are soulless machines, but they in turn seem to exhibit faith and encourage faith in God, the machine teaches the human, the child is father to the man.

Now we know that the Colonials as a whole, have "gods" that they believe in, but the Cylons refer to "God" as the only God there is.

So when it all comes down to it, is this series a holy war? A war between montheistic cylons and pantheistic colonials?

Or...is the god that belongs to the Cylons, merely trying to use them to bring the humans back to him?

Either way, it's pretty intriguing.

Spassvogel

I think this is a really interesting theme being negotiated here - I'm a grad student and have spent the last few days reading about secularization theory for a seminar. In brief, secularization theory postulates that the more modernized a culture becomes, the less religious. Secularization theory has been criticized, but the most successful criticisms derive from analysis of American trends, and a recent statistical study of 15 countries showed that America is actually an outlier, a rare case of religion actually *flourishing* as modernization increases. Also, according to Stark, a statistically significant majority of scientists define themselves as religious people. So what's with the continued propagation of the idea that the more brilliant and scientific one becomes, the more atheistic? That does not actually seem to be a supportable theory, anecdotally or statistically.

Also, something that hasn't been brought to the surface is that the dominant religious paradigm of the BSGverse is polytheistic - the Lords of Kobol, "may the gods have mercy on you" etc. - the monotheism of Six is even more interesting when considered in this context. It means that she's not only proselytizing, she's a "heretic", a proponent of an unorthodox religious belief. Thoughts?

I'm hoping that these themes get developed more, but not at the expense of ACTION. More space battles! More action! Let's have battleground conversions and theology in the trenches for a change, I'm sick and tired of watching Six negotiate for Baltar's soul using her cho-cho as bait. It's more tiresome to watch him get dragged around by his manhandle when he's supposed to be so smart than it is to hear him spout nonsense about how metaphysics is for dummies. And PLEASE don't tell me that no-one could resist! Six is lovely, but please. Baltar's ego is plenty big enough to override everything else if adequately bruised, and we haven't seen a realistic depiction of that.

Chalcedony

[Wylden]

Two different speculations on my part...

The Greek Pantheon / Judeo-Christian connection

Perhaps RDM is playing off some of the recent pseudo-scholarship that relates the Greek Olympian gods to the descendants of Abraham. Hence the 12 Titans (supposed giants by tradition) are really the 12 patriarchs Adam through Noah (supposed giants by tradition). According to JudeoChristian tradition, the Greeks are the descendants of Noah through Japeth. The greeks have a similar Noah story with the Greeks being descending from the Noah figure (Deucalion) through his son Hellas. This being the case -- perhaps the cyclons are a return to the "true religion."

A second speculation off on another tangent. God made man in his own image. Colonials made the Cylons in their own image. Perhaps there was an early scientist involved in cyclon development that went rogue and this is their "God". There is the comment "God's will be done. Though that is too Noonian Soong for me. In Greek religion there does exist a cult to Orpheus that deals with the transmigration of souls, the nature of humanity / evil, and salvation that mirrors a bit of monotheism. Also the mythology surrounding the Titans, prior to the Olympians, made an attempt at a monotheistic god/goddesshead argument in their power struggle that resulted in their punishment by Tartarus.

[Chalcedony]

What if the Cylons came up with the idea of God because the necessity of a divine organizing principle is ineluctable? That's certainly the conclusion that many mathematicians end up coming to.

The Orphic cult wasn't monolatrist as far as I know. It's Pythagorean and Platonic, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some business with monads and all that, but it's not a monotheistic religion...

Besides which, since it's the humans that are polytheist and the Cylons which are monotheist, I'm not sure if I understand how you're playing that out?

What is certain is that the Cylons see themselves as champions of certain values which they feel humanity has betrayed. It's an interesting departure from the frank villainy and snide masterminds of TOS Cylons.

I may be making a serious mistake here, though. There's no real indication that these theologisms are held by Cylons in general. They've only been clearly articulated by Six-in-Baltar's-Head, who seems to be a renegade in any case. Unable to directly countermand Cylon goals, but able to turn Gaius' head so he would see the bomb in the command center. She's said that the other Cylons don't know about her. How could that be if her presence is mechanical? They would have to know, for example, that she could put nanosites or somesuch in him during sex. And what about Tyrol? He's been making sweet sweet love to a Cylon too. Will he eventually start hallucinating? If not, that suggests that Six-in-the-Head is a local phenomenon. Like a conscience. Or an angel.

Ooh.

[Alan]

Chalcedony said:

I may be making a serious mistake here, though. There's no real indication that these theologisms are held by Cylons in general. They've only been clearly articulated by Six-in-Baltar's-Head

No, the monotheistic god has been mentioned by Six (the real one) near the start of the miniseries, when she tells Baltar that "God wants me to help you" (by sabotaging the colonial defense systems).

Also, god is mentioned by Leoben Conoy during conversation with Adama at Ragnar Anchorage. Conoy suggests that god may have given the Cylons souls.

that suggests that Six-in-the-Head is a local phenomenon. Like a conscience. Or an angel.

Or he's going bOnKeRs!

[Chalcedony]

Alan said:

No, the monotheistic god has been mentioned by Six (the real one) near the start of the miniseries, when she tells Baltar that "God wants me to help you" (by sabotaging the colonial defense systems).

Also, god is mentioned by Leoben Conoy during conversation with Adama at Ragnar Anchorage. Conoy suggests that god may have given the Cylons souls.


Or he's going bOnKeRs!

Or maybe I am! I had completely forgotten that she'd mentioned God in ep 1, although I remember that now. I don't remember God coming up on the walk through Ragnar Anchorage. Guess I have to watch the episode again!

This is reassuring, though. Also, I just read this interview with Moore, and it looks like Cylons really did work it out on their own and decide on a one true god:

scifipulse.net/battlestarnews/RDM_Oct2004.html

I am profoundly thankful that we're not going to be subjected to some Bill Gates "God" type at the end of the series who sits in a lotus blossom while Cylon women give him a pedicure and he explains his big super sekrit scientific breakthroughs.

Baltar's religious weathervaning reminds me of Homer and his close relationship with Jeebus.

[Spassvogel]

Hehe, well, that interview with Moore seems to kinda confirm some of our guesses.

My main wish, is that we don't end up with a Matrix-esque "explanation" of things. That is...finding the old man in the room with all the televisions...

If the series ends with Adama dropping dead and a giant cylon head saying "Peace" with his last breath, I'll never forgive Ronald D. Moore.

But seriously, I think it certainly adds a lot of depth to a genre that often gets wrapped up in its action scenes. The best written Sci-Fi IMO doesn't leave out God. It's interesting that early Sci-Fi (like the pulps) weren't as gun-shy about religion, but the majority of sci-fi in the written form (I'm thinking stuff published in F&SF for example) is pretty atheistic, or merely uses religion as the opponents of science. Moore hasn't dismissed religion, he's wholly embraced it, and I think that can only make the series good.

Spass

[Xenu]

I think this is one of the most fascinating aspects of TNS, and one that may even pull non-sci-fi viewers into the loop as well. The writing is so good & all these little sub-plots are worthy of their own storyline...the religion angle being one of the most interesting.
My theory that I've stated on several threads is that the Cylons met & were influenced by a renegade "god" being during their 40-year absence...one maybe called Lucifer?

[Chalcedony]

Xenu, that's a fun theory - but it doesn't seem to square with what Ron Moore says in that interview... And if anyone knows the backstory that we haven't seen yet, I'm guessing it's him.

[Xenu]

Ya, I know...I just wanna write some episodes, so I might as well do it in my head

[Spassvogel]

Well, maybe Count Iblis found them, hehe.

Patrick McNee *is* still alive.

Spass

[mattw65]

"God created the Dinosaurs, God killed the Dinosaurs, God created Man, Man kills God, Man re-creates the Dinosaurs, Dinosaurs kill Man!" Dr. Ian Malcolm - Jurassic Park

"God created Man, Man kills God, Man created Cylons, Cylons kill Man!"

[ady86245]

mattw65 said:

"God created the Dinosaurs, God killed the Dinosaurs, God created Man, Man kills God, Man re-creates the Dinosaurs, Dinosaurs kill Man!" Dr. Ian Malcolm - Jurassic Park

"God created Man, Man kills God, Man created Cylons, Cylons kill Man!"

You forgot the next part:
Cylons create God.

[Chalcedony]

There's a parallel discussion to this one going on in Galactica Science & Technology under topic: BSG Timeline that has some cool stuff innit.

[mattw65]

ady86245 said:

You forgot the next part:
Cylons create God.

Ah, but did they?

[ady86245]

mattw65 said:

Ah, but did they?

Six seems pretty convinced of his existence (assuming she isn't just a figment of Baltars imagination).