Unprovable "facts"

[MHall]

Although this is more of a problem over on scifi.com, I see a lot of people taking unseen things from the show as absolute facts, which they will not leave open to dispute. I suggest this is dangerous, and I suggest the writers are intentionally trying to mislead the viewers in some spots. Here are some examples of dangerous assumptions:

(SPOILERS through episode 10...)

* "Boomer planted the explosives in the water tank." We did not see this. Ron Moore said in commentary that there are other as yet unrevealed Cylon agents on board.

* "No human can survive the pressures in the water tank." This is from a deleted scene, but even taking it as gospel, if the artificial gravity were lowered it would not be true. In any case, we do not know that a humanoid Cylon went into the tank.

* "Humanoid Cylons have consciousness transfer capabilities." Humanoid Cylons believe they have consciousness transfer capabilities. Almost. They don't always seem so sure, and I have posted an alternate mechanism that would fool them into thinking this exists. You can't be sure if they can't be sure. In any case, we have never seen a "reincarnated" Cylon with the memories of the dead one.

* "Humanoid Cylons think with silica relays." You believe this because the humanoid Cylons believe it. Why do they believe it? Because the chrome toasters told them so, most likely. Would you believe whatever a chrome toaster says?

* "Humanoid Cylons must have silica relays, because their cognition and health is affected by Ragnar radiation." Finally! This is the first thing about which there has been any hard evidence: Leoben at Ragnar and Baltar's Cylon detector. However, Leoben's symptoms could be explained in some other ways. His symptoms are identical to a nerve agent like Sarin, which causes confusion, difficulty breathing, etc. His symptoms are also similar to a human who has received a massive fatal radiation dose. Hmmm.

* "Synthetic substances upon cremation PROVE they are Cylons!" And a second piece of hard evidence! Yes, there are synthetic substances found upon cremation of a humanoid Cylon. Unfortunately, all you have proved is that American Vice President Dick Cheney is a Cylon. He has a pacemaker, which is built from synthetic substances.

* "Humanoid Cylons possess superhuman powers of surviving huge pressures underwater and having superhuman speed, strength, and endurance." We have never seen a humanoid Cylon survive huge water pressures. Sharon even gives you a possible explanation for the rest: "Adrenaline!!!" Leoben's broken handcuffs may be the only evidence of behavior beyond that of a drugged up human, and because Cylons have access to any part of Galactica, including handcuff and weapons lockers, it's weak evidence.

* "Humanoid Cylons glow during sex, so they are artificial." Some shrimp also emit bioluminesence during sex, but they are not artificial. Spine-glowing proves that humanoid Cylons are not unaltered humans, only.

* "Humanoid Cylons are not humans." If Caprica Boomer is pregnant by a human, then she is human, by definition pretty much. (However, this remains to be seen.) A surgically altered human, like Dick Cheney with his pacemaker, is still human.

* "It must be true, because internal Six said such-n-such." The writers are careful to keep "Baltar is bonkers" as a possible explanation; you cannot trust what she says even if she is real.

* "All Sixes have the same exact personality, including Shelly Godfrey." Someone really posted that. You are assuming that when you see the same actress, you are seeing the same individual on the show with the same personality. This is almost hardwired into your psychology, so fight the temptation to lump them together!

* "And there has only ever been one Boomer on Galactica." Ditto to the above. There is evidence that this is not true.

So, I advise caution. Everything may not be as it seems.

[Mordraken]

Interesting observations. I'll comment on those that I have opinions on:

* "Boomer planted the explosives in the water tank." We did not see this. Ron Moore said in commentary that there are other as yet unrevealed Cylon agents on board.

I think this one is safe to believe. Yes, she could have been framed, but she has shown inconsistencies in her behaviour enough for us to know that she is not fully in control of what she is doing.

* "Humanoid Cylons have consciousness transfer capabilities." Humanoid Cylons believe they have consciousness transfer capabilities. Almost. They don't always seem so sure, and I have posted an alternate mechanism that would fool them into thinking this exists. You can't be sure if they can't be sure. In any case, we have never seen a "reincarnated" Cylon with the memories of the dead one.

This I completely agree with you. What better way to make your army fearless of death by telling them that they will never die (i.e. their conciousness will be transferred, kind of implying that it can be replaced into a new body). Further, if their conciousness CAN be transferred, then they could use that same transfer to have telepathy, which we haven't heard about. I for one agree with you here. (although a side note... if Sharon did leave the door open for the attack, how did she know to do that? hmmmm)

* "Humanoid Cylons possess superhuman powers of surviving huge pressures underwater and having superhuman speed, strength, and endurance." We have never seen a humanoid Cylon survive huge water pressures. Sharon even gives you a possible explanation for the rest: "Adrenaline!!!" Leoben's broken handcuffs may be the only evidence of behavior beyond that of a drugged up human, and because Cylons have access to any part of Galactica, including handcuff and weapons lockers, it's weak evidence.

Personally I would perfer the writers to stay away from Bicyclons with super powers, but unfortunatley it looks like it's in. They definetly have more strength and endurance. Yes, Sharon used Adrenaline, but Helo also has adrenaline... and (not to be sexist) men usually have more adrenaline than women.

* "Humanoid Cylons glow during sex, so they are artificial." Some shrimp also emit bioluminesence during sex, but they are not artificial. Spine-glowing proves that humanoid Cylons are not unaltered humans, only.

My thought is that this is soely an effect for the TV. Anyone who has had mutliple sexual encounters with the same partner would notice this after a couple of times... let's be honest - we're not all misionaries...

* "Humanoid Cylons are not humans." If Caprica Boomer is pregnant by a human, then she is human, by definition pretty much.

That all depends on your defintion of human. The Humans in BSG define human as "natural origin", as opposed to "man made" (or in this story - "machine made"). Under this premise, even a test-tube baby made out of a human womb would not qualify as being human. This is just sematics, and I would expect this definition of "what is human" and "what is life" to be explored further down the road in the series. I don't know if I've explained my opinion well enough, but suffice it to say that the Human's opinion is that Bicyclons are not human because they were not organically born to two human parents in the traditional method. The fact that they can reproduce is irrelvant.

* "It must be true, because internal Six said such-n-such." The writers are careful to keep "Baltar is bonkers" as a possible explanation; you cannot trust what she says even if she is real.

This can be applied to every cyclon/bicyclon in the show. The whole thing about them is misinformation.

* "All Sixes have the same exact personality, including Shelly Godfrey." Someone really posted that. You are assuming that when you see the same actress, you are seeing the same individual on the show with the same personality. This is almost hardwired into your psychology, so fight the temptation to lump them together!

I agree with you as well. However, I *think* that different models will have specific characteristics. For example - the #6 model is jealous and possessive, but doesn't seem to have the caring/loving emotitions that the Sharon model has. Again, this could come to specialization in models for specific purposes... but that is complete conjecture.

* "And there has only ever been one Boomer on Galactica." Ditto to the above. There is evidence that this is not true.

There is no evidence either way. I read a speculation on another board that the Caprica Boomer was actually the BSG-Boomer, and the baby is the Chief's. I doubt that since the switch would have had to have been made with a full ship of people... but the story is there. Defintely the "twins" thing could be played, but it would be surprising that there were never mutliple sightings of the same clone at the same time. No proof either way on this one.

So, I advise caution. Everything may not be as it seems.

That's one of the tennants of the show.

Good post!

[EJOFan]

Great post!

But I don't think Dick Cheney is human.

[CrimsonCrystal]

All very excellent points and I concur. There are probably several others that fit this category.

About boomer and whether Helo is the proud father: Its possible. Some women have been known to ovulate more than once. For all we know, the cylons have engineered their women to do precisely that. But we really don't know.

Many viewers area also assuming that Galactica's two narrow escapes in the mini were the result of the "Cylon Plan." We don't know that. In fact, if the very first attack had succeeded, Galactica would have been hit by 6 nukes (3 from each fighter). Wait a minute...was it 2 or 3 cylon fighters? 6 nukes or 9 nukes, either way, it would have been ugly.

I'm not sure Boomer-G intentionally led Galactica to the Tylium mining center. She might be trying to make things difficult, but we have no proof that she was programmed (or is in direct contact) to lead them there. We can make some assumptions about cylon humanoid infiltrator behavoirs. 1)Keep low. 2)Don't reveal yourself. 3)Only attack high ranking officers if absolutely necessary. 4)Make life hell for the humans 5)get people to trust you and like you.

The cylons might not really care about a prophecy or anything like that. The simplest explanation is that they are trying to manipulate the leadership of the colonies to lure them into a trap.

The real cylon Plan is back on Caprica and the colonies.

Also, there are two possibilities about episode "33". It could have been the passenger liner that had the tracking device. Or, it could have been Boomer, everytime she and her raptor flew between jumps. We still don't know for sure. SInce someone planted explosives in her raptor, and we have seen malfunctioning sensors and dradis scans, maybe the raptors have been modified by a cylon?

Maybe there is some more hidden cylon tech (and cylons) on board the Galactica. We haven't actually seen them perform a detailed configuration management software and hardware audit of the ship.

One other thought about what we have seen (or not seen). If the Cylons had a large footprint in space, wouldn't we have noticed by now? Since we haven't does that mean the Cylon's powerbase is relatively small (a few dozen or few hundred lightyears)?

Just some thoughts.

Glad you posted it. I've been thinking along similar lines trying to decipher the information, mis-information, and the lack of information.

[caseOrange]

There's three things you listed that i would take issue with:

MHall said:

* "Boomer planted the explosives in the water tank." We did not see this. Ron Moore said in commentary that there are other as yet unrevealed Cylon agents on board.

Even though we never see it, and even still if RDM makes an aside to unrevealed Cylon agents, there is still a ton of circumstantial evidence: she is soaking wet, she has a bag with a towel, a change of clothes, and a detonator. Granted, after Nicole Simpson was killed, OJ headed for the Mexican border with a passport, cash, a mask, and a gun, and was still found not guilty; but that's reality--this is Sci-Fi. It makes more sense.

MHall said:

* "Humanoid Cylons think with silica relays." You believe this because the humanoid Cylons believe it. Why do they believe it? Because the chrome toasters told them so, most likely. Would you believe whatever a chrome toaster says?

Adama mentions it first to Loeben at RA. i'll take what Adama says over a chrome toaster.
;D

MHall said:

* "And there has only ever been one Boomer on Galactica." Ditto to the above. There is evidence that this is not true.

i've seen up to ep 11 and i haven't seen that evidence.

[Kass]

MHall said:

* "Synthetic substances upon cremation PROVE they are Cylons!" And a second piece of hard evidence! Yes, there are synthetic substances found upon cremation of a humanoid Cylon. Unfortunately, all you have proved is that American Vice President Dick Cheney is a Cylon. He has a pacemaker, which is built from synthetic substances.

You're going on the assumption they cremate the entire body. They've never done that in the series, as proven by Adama going back to view Leoben's body during "Flesh and Bone." Also, in the mini, Baltar says they cremated a "tissue sample." That test could be valid.

If you cremated a tissue sample from Cheney's arm, leg, butt, even stomach or chest, you'd find no evidence of the pacemaker. Whether or not he's human, I'll leave to the individual to decide.

[mysteriousways03]

that was a very thought provoking post ;D

[ChrisS]

MHall said:

* "Humanoid Cylons have consciousness transfer capabilities." Humanoid Cylons believe they have consciousness transfer capabilities. Almost. They don't always seem so sure, and I have posted an alternate mechanism that would fool them into thinking this exists. You can't be sure if they can't be sure. In any case, we have never seen a "reincarnated" Cylon with the memories of the dead one.

I'll go even farther than you do. I don't know that the humanoid Cylons believe it. All I know is that they've claimed that that's the case when speaking to the Colonials. I have little confidence that they're telling the truth in any of their dealings with the Colonials. I only go by what they say when they're talking amongst each other. (This goes for their religion too. Something they only talk about when they're speaking to one of the Colonials.)

* "Humanoid Cylons think with silica relays." You believe this because the humanoid Cylons believe it. Why do they believe it? Because the chrome toasters told them so, most likely. Would you believe whatever a chrome toaster says?

Again, how do we know that the humanoid Cylons actually believe this? Do any of them ever say so? Or is it just something that Adama assumed, and Loeben never bothered to correct him?

[MHall]

Kass said:

If you cremated a tissue sample from Cheney's arm, leg, butt, even stomach or chest, you'd find no evidence of the pacemaker.

Are you sure? You think the coating on a pacemaker does not leak any molecules?

[MHall]

ChrisS said:

I'll go even farther than you do. I don't know that the humanoid Cylons believe it. All I know is that they've claimed that that's the case when speaking to the Colonials.

Yeah, I also noticed my mistake when I was rereading my post. Good catch.

[Daliden]

There are limits to this kind of thinking, you know.

What proof do we have that anything in the series has actually happened? Maybe it's all Laura Roslin's pain-and-medication-induced nightmare?

Maybe Starbuck will wake up with Zak in the shower.

This thread has more stubble than Adama in "33" and could really use Occam's Razor.

[Kass]

MHall said:

Are you sure? You think the coating on a pacemaker does not leak any molecules?

That's doubtful because if the medical profession used something that leeched into the bloodstream, that would be as bad for the patient as the heart condition. It's one of the reasons platinum, polyurethene, titanium are used. They do not corrode in the body. The silicone in the pacemaker is contained within the platinum body of the pacemaker. There's no coating on a pacemaker.

If a pacemaker is removed, there is no real way to tell if someone ever had one. You can infer that from an external scar or scarring on the heart muscle, but there is no blood or tissue test that will register if a pacemaker had ever been used.

[CylonGod]

Kass is right! I work for a company (WilsonGreatbatch) that produces most of the batteries and contarcts to manufacture about 80% of the parts and assemblies that go into a pacemaker and ICD (Implantable cardiac defibulater). For company's such Pacesetter/ST Jude, Medtronic, Terumo, Minimed and a bunch of other big time medical corps. Our batteries also power all the Abcor Hearts (Complete man made heart), We also make LVAD (left ventrical heart assist pumps) for Plexus/Terumo, implantable insulin pumps, Coclear (CKSP) hearing aids (implanted directly on the ear drum) and many other implantable devices. All of these devices Except the hearing aid are removed upon death by law. They (pacemaker/defibs) are all covered in a Titanium case that is then implanted in the body. The leads are then attached to the heart. Nothing leaks out. The Batteries and hermeticly sealed as well as the case itself. There has never been a field failure (in a body) of one of our batteries (we make around 90% of all paceing and defib batteries in the world). the other 10% are made by Medtronic under our patent. Nothing has ever leaked out in a unit. The rest of the device(s) is made out of plastic (tfezeel or similar) and Titanium. Why Titanium because it is light and strong but mainly because it is hypoallerginic (It Hypo means below so it's below allergic) There for it does not react in the body and because of this the bodies immune system can't sence it and react. Titanium is also used in bone screws and plates. If you creamated my body upon death you would find ashes and 8 screws and a plate that is in my right arm from an auto accident that made them necessary to rebuild my wrist. The same would happen with the pacemaker people. No traces of leaked stuff just the componet it's self. You probably eat more metals and artificial materials (Styrefoam and Teflon are biggies) in your life time then you would find from an implanted device.

Baltar needed and excuse to tell about the Cylon device. He picked Doral by dumb luck. He made up the tissue test in order to tell about Doral and the Cylon Device in the CIC. WATCH the mini again (I did many times) and you will see. He made it up so not to let on the fact that he was fracking a Cylon for the last two years and they used him to get to the defence grid. He needed a reason for how he knew what a Cylon device looked like besides seeing Six's. Please now can we put the whole synthetic test to rest. For crying out loud anyone who was tested for synthetic substances would be test positive becuase of all the stuff people injest over their life span not to mention what you breath in. Sheezes

[Kass]

Hee. Your company's website is one of the ones I researched on before I posted the first time.

My grandfather's pacemaker had to be removed before cremation because apparently pacemaker batteries (like all batteries) tend to go "BOOM" in the intense heat of the cremation chamber.

I'm guessing that is a bad thing.

[CylonGod]

The batteries have lithium and iodine in them the lithium is very explosive in water. However fire isn't good for it either. Whether they like the fire or not they have to be removed even if your buried. It's a law. The law is against animation of the dead (weird explaination). The pacer/defib will continue to shock the dead heart. I guess it's seen as some type of desicreation of the dead. This also goes for any powered implantable device. By law they have to be removed upon death. We have a company down the road from us that used to be part of ours that handles the old batteries and devices. It is called BTD (Battery Disposal group). Sorry to bore you all with this.