Is the Baltar on Galactica a cylon?

[Alan]

ernestborg9 said:

What if Baltar's body was destroyed in the blast, and what we are seeing is Baltar's original mentality now contained in a Cylon body?

Well, that's a hell of a stretch in many respects, given what we've seen...

It's a hell of a stretch in many respects, given what we've seen, but could still turn out to be an interesting twist on things.

Glad you agree with me! ;D

Seriously: they haven't established the background that would be needed for a storyline like that. So far there is no evidence that Cylons can create copies of real, living people.

This ability would make the show a bit twonky, because for every character we would always have to be second-guessing whether they had been replaced by an Cylon of identical appearance. If I were Ron Moore, I wouldn't even want to open that door.

Note that it also breaks the "twelve model" rule. If they can make a fake Cylon version of Baltar, then aren't there really thirteen models now?

Also, your theory is somewhat contradicted by comments in the miniseries. Consider:

If you're right, and Baltar is a Cylon, then Inner-Six would obviously have to be real. After all, we can't have him be a CYLON who is insane and has delusions which just happen to put ANOTHER CYLON in his head! That would exceed anybody's suspension of disbelief, I think. All the "cylonisms" surrounding Baltar must be explained by a single theory, or else the whole thing just gets silly and unbelievable.

So if you're right, then Inner-Six must be real; a chip or personality imprint or something similar.

In that case, why did she tell Baltar in the miniseries that "we should really make a copy of your brain pattern at some point"? If you're right, then the Cylons already have a copy of his brain pattern!

[ernestborg9]

Alan said:

Well, that's a hell of a stretch in many respects, given what we've seen...


Glad you agree with me! ;D

Seriously: they haven't established the background that would be needed for a storyline like that. So far there is no evidence that Cylons can create copies of real, living people.

This ability would make the show a bit twonky, because for every character we would always have to be second-guessing whether they had been replaced by an Cylon of identical appearance. If I were Ron Moore, I wouldn't even want to open that door.

Note that it also breaks the "twelve model" rule. If they can make a fake Cylon version of Baltar, then aren't there really thirteen models now?

Also, your theory is somewhat contradicted by comments in the miniseries. Consider:

If you're right, and Baltar is a Cylon, then Inner-Six would obviously have to be real. After all, we can't have him be a CYLON who is insane and has delusions which just happen to put ANOTHER CYLON in his head! That would exceed anybody's suspension of disbelief, I think. All the "cylonisms" surrounding Baltar must be explained by a single theory, or else the whole thing just gets silly and unbelievable.

So if you're right, then Inner-Six must be real; a chip or personality imprint or something similar.

In that case, why did she tell Baltar in the miniseries that "we should really make a copy of your brain pattern at some point"? If you're right, then the Cylons already have a copy of his brain pattern!

You miss the point. ;D

I'm not saying Baltar is a .

I'm saying what if Baltar is a human mind in a Cylon construct? That indeed, at the moment the blast in the mini struck the house, they did precisely what "Six" suggested: made a copy of his brain pattern - an exact, precise copy of his mental state, warts and all, and downloaded that into a Cylon body.

This does not automatically mean he's a "Cylon going mad". It means he is a human mind, with all its neuroses and fears, that is (unknowingly to itself) now sitting inside a Cylon body. As such, his psychosis is still pretty much a human condition.

Ergo, his inner "Six" can still be a product of his imagination; it has nothing whatsoever to do with chips or otherwise.

As I said - it is a stretch, and an idea I'm just kicking around out there; I'm not even saying I think it is right.

BUT - considering the force with which the blast struck Balter's house - he had a pretty miraculous escape, given all he ended up with is a scratch on the cheek. - and the "wall" Ulrick mentioned, which looks to be barely a foot high, would be hardly sufficient to protect him as he knelt behind Six....

I also would disagree that the notion sets a huge wobble in the story. Certainly, it doesn't automatically mean the Cylons can do this to others - not as long as the fleet remains outside their direct influence. Therefore, there is no "second guessing" as to who they may have "swapped over".

As to the "12 model" comment - it's not necessarily a rule. It is a statement - one which, at the time Six stated it, was perfectly valid. However, that does not mean the Cylons are incapable of adding further models to their line-up. That's the point of evolution after all. If they can create humanoid constructs with 4 different faces (Doral, Conoy, Valerii and Six), how much harder is it going to be for them to create constructs with 8 or 12 or 24 different faces? It's simply a matter of scale and (for want of a better term) "facial molds" used in the creation of such constructs.

Further: in the heirarchy, it's been pretty much assumed that "Doral" is a model, "Six" is a model, "Conoy" is a model, plus the likes of the Raider is a model, the basestar is a model....

...BUT....what if the "humanoid construct" is a "model", regardless of what face (Doral, Conoy, Six, Valerii) it happens to "wear"? Thus, Doral, Six, Conoy and Valerii could actually be variations on a single model, rather than being models themselves - leaving the whole question as to how many "models" we've seen very much open at this point!

Finally (and I've gone WAY off the original topic here ), the procreation sub-plot that seems to be driving the Helo / Valerii subplot could be said to be another means of adding a new model to the line-up!

[Alan]

ernestborg9 said:

This does not automatically mean he's a "Cylon going mad". It means he is a human mind, with all its neuroses and fears, that is (unknowingly to itself) now sitting inside a Cylon body. As such, his psychosis is still pretty much a human condition.

Ergo, his inner "Six" can still be a product of his imagination; it has nothing whatsoever to do with chips or otherwise.

I understand your point, but gotta say it's a fanwank. Seriously, don't you think this theory is a bit off-beam? Clearly Baltar is influenced by the Cylons, and that influence will have to be explained at some point, but Occam's razor would seem to slice any theory that requires two separate phenomena to explain it all. Why should we assume that Baltar has a CYLON body but his HUMAN intellect has gone insane and is imagining a totally unrelated CYLON personality co-habiting his (actually!) CYLON body? It's just too complicated.

We need one theory to explain the Cylon influence over Baltar, not two. If Baltar's current body is bio-Cylon, then we need to tie that fact together with the presence of Inner-Six in some logical way.

I also would disagree that the notion sets a huge wobble in the story. Certainly, it doesn't automatically mean the Cylons can do this to others - not as long as the fleet remains outside their direct influence. Therefore, there is no "second guessing" as to who they may have "swapped over".

Sure there is. We know that the Cylons have agents aboard the fleet, because we've seen various Boomer, Doral, and Six-models wandering around. The only Cylon we haven't seen aboard Galactica is Leoben Conoy, and if IMDB can be trusted he's going to reappear soon too.

Furthermore numerous characters have been away from others and in contact with Cylons. Adama was off for a long time with Leoben Conoy on Ragnar Station; Starbuck was lost on a planet and returned aboard a Cylon ship (!) while Helo is wandering on a planet apparently full of the little buggers. Chief Tyrol has had tons of private smoochie time with Boomer. That's four characters that could already have been replaced, WITHOUT counting the Cylons' ability to snatch people from within the fleet itself!

As to the "12 model" comment - it's not necessarily a rule. It is a statement - one which, at the time Six stated it, was perfectly valid. However, that does not mean the Cylons are incapable of adding further models to their line-up.

Agreed, but information like this isn't just presented to the characters in the show. It's also presented to the audience, and the audience expects some consistency in how the producers and scriptwriters handle the "rules" of a TV-show world.

The Cylons can absolutely create a thirteenth model, but it would need to be revealed to the audience in some dramatic way.

Also note that much of the "twelve model" discussions have occured since the destruction of the Colonies. For example, Adama finds a note at the end of the miniseries. Under your theory, that note was already false when Adama read it, which might make logical sense but (again) is unfaithful to the audience, since it presents false information about the world.

...BUT....what if the "humanoid construct" is a "model", regardless of what face (Doral, Conoy, Six, Valerii) it happens to "wear"? Thus, Doral, Six, Conoy and Valerii could actually be variations on a single model, rather than being models themselves - leaving the whole question as to how many "models" we've seen very much open at this point!

Tricia Helfer's character has been distinguished by her name ("Number Six") from the other models, such as Doral and Conoy and Valerii. Under your theory, ALL the bio-Cylon models are equally "Number Six". Doesn't really fit what's been presented so far.

the procreation sub-plot that seems to be driving the Helo / Valerii subplot could be said to be another means of adding a new model to the line-up!

Agreed! And if so, then Helo's a lucky guy.

[Xenu]

Guess we at least have a definite answer to the thread's main topic now at least...

[peshwari]

Another point though is that he is/was a confirmed aethiest. Perhaps they are also testing to see how hard it is to convert humans to the one true God? It certainly looks like it is one of 6's main goals anyway.

[Spassvogel]

I don't buy that the Cylons can just replace anyone. It doesn't seem to me that it's a case of "facial molds" because haven't they said that the flesh, organs, etc, are all human (grown? rather than molded?)

But there are some elements that are fake, detectable when they're cremated. (or with Baltar's cylon detector).

I think it's harder for them to make the humanoid cylons. Baltar has a "purpose" we learn that from Six right away, and I don't think a replaced Baltar could serve that purpose, otherwise why would they need him at all? If a cylon could fulfill that purpose, they'd just use a cylon.

Spass

[ernestborg9]

Alan said:

I understand your point, but gotta say it's a fanwank. Seriously, don't you think this theory is a bit off-beam? Clearly Baltar is influenced by the Cylons, and that influence will have to be explained at some point, but Occam's razor would seem to slice any theory that requires two separate phenomena to explain it all. Why should we assume that Baltar has a CYLON body but his HUMAN intellect has gone insane and is imagining a totally unrelated CYLON personality co-habiting his (actually!) CYLON body? It's just too complicated.

Why is "Six" a Cylon in this case? That's your assumption on the matter, not what I was indicating.

Regardless of what body he is in, my point is Baltar is still a human mind undergoing a gradual breakdown. Ergo, his "Six" is still a product of his mental state.

Just because I'm postulating the (wild) idea that he is now in a Cylon body, does not automatically mean his "six" is a "Cylon" within that body.

It really is a simple matter of same mind / same neurosis, different body.

Ergo, the "complications" you see are entirely of your own making and not inherent in the argument itself

We need one theory to explain the Cylon influence over Baltar, not two. If Baltar's current body is bio-Cylon, then we need to tie that fact together with the presence of Inner-Six in some logical way.

See above! She is a product of his imagination, as we've always stated.

Sure there is. We know that the Cylons have agents aboard the fleet, because we've seen various Boomer, Doral, and Six-models wandering around. The only Cylon we haven't seen aboard Galactica is Leoben Conoy, and if IMDB can be trusted he's going to reappear soon too.

Well, for the sake of devil's advocate, I'm going to say that in fact we've only for sure seen a corporeal Doral on Galactica. There are significant questions yet to be resolved around "Shelly Godfrey" that need to be resolved before we can make a totall safe assumption that she was another corporeal Six.

Furthermore numerous characters have been away from others and in contact with Cylons. Adama was off for a long time with Leoben Conoy on Ragnar Station; Starbuck was lost on a planet and returned aboard a Cylon ship (!) while Helo is wandering on a planet apparently full of the little buggers. Chief Tyrol has had tons of private smoochie time with Boomer. That's four characters that could already have been replaced, WITHOUT counting the Cylons' ability to snatch people from within the fleet itself!

Different circumstances and aims

Adama couldn't be "swapped" simply because Loeben Conoy on Ragnar was out of contact with his kind.

Starbuck was downed on a planet with a Cylon sub-species designed for the purpose of killing. Never in contact with the Cylons, & also incapable of "swapping" her.

Boomer's primary mission was probably the same as that of her "sister" on Caprica: to get a human male (in Boomer's case Tyrol) to fall in love with her. Ergo, "swapping" him would be pointless.

Finally, we have already seen that the Cylons can "snatch people from within the fleet itself". The episode is called "33", and some 1345 people were indeed "snatched", the empty windows of the Olympic Carrier standing as a clear testament that their eventual fate is unknown.

On a smaller scale, if we do accept "Shelly Godfrey" was another corporeal Six, then we appear to have their ability to snatch individual corporeal entities demonstrated on a smaller scale: "Godfrey's" disappearance from Galactica and the end of "Six Degrees..."

Agreed, but information like this isn't just presented to the characters in the show. It's also presented to the audience, and the audience expects some consistency in how the producers and scriptwriters handle the "rules" of a TV-show world.

Again, see above. It has been presented to us through the windows of an empty Olympic Carrier.

And, given the underlying causes of Baltar's miraculous survival, together with the truth concerning the real nature of his "Six" have not been revealed to us as yet - no "rules" have as yet been broken.

In putting forward this proposal (whether I support it or not), I think it fair to say that the only "rules" I've broken are those you have used to frame your own conceptions and desires for the show

Based on what we've seen, the idea of Baltar now occupying a Cylon body simply does not break any rules or cahnge anything that has been presented on-screen thus far. Everything he has sad or done hold true to the show and his character regardless of the body he is occupying. - simply because he doesn't know his own circumstance in this regard.

The Cylons can absolutely create a thirteenth model, but it would need to be revealed to the audience in some dramatic way.

And Baltar discovering he is in fact occupying a Cylon creation isn't dramatic?

Also note that much of the "twelve model" discussions have occured since the destruction of the Colonies. For example, Adama finds a note at the end of the miniseries. Under your theory, that note was already false when Adama read it, which might make logical sense but (again) is unfaithful to the audience, since it presents false information about the world.

Misinformation. A powerful weapon when engaged in a war. Who is to say that the message wasn't deliberate misdirection?

Also, you assume that the reference to "12" discounts what might have happened to Baltar, because he is automatically "model 13". However, at the time Adama reads the message, we only have the certainty that we've seen 8 Cylon models:

Conoy
Six
Doral
Valerii
Raider
Basestar
Warrior
Toaster

(Note: I make a choice to discount the model of the TOS-style basestar that is seen in Galactica's museum because, as discussed elsewhere, I don't believe that particular basestar was a original creation on the part of the Cylons - that's me bringing my preconceptions into the argument )


SO - that leaves 4 models unaccounted for, and plenty of room for Baltar to fit the frame without the words Adama reads being "false".


As I said - the idea is a real stretch, but nothing you have postulated in response negates the idea in any way, other than your own preconceptions about "Six" in his head


Certainly, this idea is no more a stretch than asking us to accept that Baltar's house is very clearly hit by the shockwave of a massive nuclear detonation, is almost certainly obliterated - and yet Baltar walks out of it with a minor scratch to his cheek!

Tricia Helfer's character has been distinguished by her name ("Number Six") from the other models, such as Doral and Conoy and Valerii. Under your theory, ALL the bio-Cylon models are equally "Number Six". Doesn't really fit what's been presented so far.

Not necessarily. The overall "model" could be humano-Cylon, with sub-classes distinguished by gender and look, hence Six, Valerii, Doral, Conoy.

"Model" is such a dangerously broad term.

Having said that, the idea is much wilder speculation than anything else I've typed-up here, and is pretty much posted in that manner, and is not a reflection of what I actually believe to be the case.

Devil's Advocate hat now off and back on the shelf

[Daggit]

Hi all,

Great debate by all ;D

Please bare with me im crap at posting ideas, so rarely do.

Have to say I agree with most of what Ernestborg9 writes.

my guess is that 's have to have sex with the person they are going to copy, I dont know if this is a brain scan copy and/or DNA copy, hence the scene where Six's back glows while in bed with Baltar prior to the nuclear explosion in episode1.

I also think Tigh's wife is a and hence her eagerness to copy him for future replacment, I would guess the reason baltar does not know that he is a is because 6 has fallen in love with him, by adopting human characteristics the cylons have become fallable, Baltar could only be kept alive by 6 by being copied and kept unaware. If he realised what he is or his cylon programming takes over, the man she loves would probably cease to exist.

As for 6 in his head, perhaps cylons do project to each others minds as standard, conoy feared his own death as he worried he was to far away to transmit his consciouness back, so they must have projectors/transmitters in them some how?

Thanks for all your great input.....

[caseOrange]

i believe Baltar is human for a couple of reasons.

Six is always stressing her religious beliefs in relation to real-life situations that are happening. In "33", she tells Baltar to repent so that Roslin will make the decision to destroy the Olympic Carrier. Why would it be necessary for another Cylon to repent, whether it knew it was a Cylon or not, in order for a Cylon mission to be thwarted? Besides, Baltar obviously doesn't know what Roslin and Adama have already realized: that the Olympic Carrier is being used as a WMD--loaded with nukes, ignoring commands to stop, and heading straight for the fleet (which has already begun jumping on Adama's command). His repentance is unnecessary because Dr. Emerick is not going to survive anyway.

Alan said:

So far there is no evidence that Cylons can create copies of real, living people.

This was my other reason.
:-*Six comes into Baltar's life 2 years before the Cylon attack, with a vague background, which not even Baltar seems to know (or care to know) much about.
:-*Dural is a smarmy P.R. guy, whose background we only learn about when he has been accused of being a Cylon, and he blurts out rapid-fire references to his personal history.
:-*Boomer is a rookie recon flier who is also an orphan--no traceable genealogy. Anybody know when she was assigned to Galactica?
:-*All we know of Loeben is what he tells Adama at RA.

Alan said:

...why did she tell Baltar in the miniseries that "we should really make a copy of your brain pattern at some point"? If you're right, then the Cylons already have a copy of his brain pattern!

Excellent point! ;D Hadn't even considered that!

i also think that if Baltar was a Cylon, the Cylons would've used him to infiltrate the defense systems instead of sending Six to seduce him into helping her.