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Post by MHall on Mar 1, 2005 15:38:23 GMT -5
So, if Starbuck is Artemis, then Six fits to Aphrodite, but if not, then Six fits better to Hera. Oh my, sweet, innocent, nympho Sharon is Aphrodite, isn't she? For all Six's talk of wanting to be loved by Baltar, it's the Sharon model who got both Tyrol and Helo to fall in love with her! Sharon shows no jealousy towards Starbuck, so Starbuck is not Artemis. This means Zak is Artemis, and Sharon will be jealous of Zak when they are finally seen to meet. So, Starbuck is Athena, Ares, or... new contender... Hercules! Hercules: Son of Zeus. Strong. Hera hates his guts. He is not one of the 12 Greek Pantheon gods. (He's actually mortal until the circumstances of his death.) So, if Starbuck is Hercules, then she is mortal and thus not Cylon, for now. Athena: Daughter of Zeus. Fierce, brave in battle, but only fights in wars against outside aggressors. She is the goddess of justice, and invented the bridle, which permitted man to tame horses and Cylon raiders. Has goat-skin shield. Ares: Son of Zeus and Hera and despised by both. God of war, murder, and cowardess. Has affair with Aphrodite (Sharon?! whoo hoo!) Well, I'm glad that's finally all clear.
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Post by MHall on Mar 1, 2005 15:36:21 GMT -5
To almost answer my own question about whether Zak was the fraternal twin of Lee, apparently Zak was the younger brother in the original series, and gateworld.net says that Zak was the younger brother in the new series. I'm still going with Zak = Artemis, since Starbuck is a better fit for Athena or Ares, plus Starbuck praying to Artemis (and Aphrodite) means she was praying to Zak (and Six or...) Regarding Six = Aphrodite, I've seen somebody question that before, preferring a different mapping. To whom? Hera? Google: jealous greek god Ding! Hera is known for being the wife of Zeus (her brother), The Goddess of Marriage and the Queen of Gods. She’s also the younger daughter of Rhea and Cronus. Her bird is the peacock and she is known to be horribly jealous. She appeared to be very jealous of Hercules(son of Zeus.)Aphrodite doesn't seem to be so jealous, but is jealous of Artemis. Vague spoiler for episodes 11-13 (highlight to reveal)... You'll see Six is a modern woman, as she explains to Baltar that he can fool around a little, but she insists his heart is hers (or else.) However, Six has never really liked Baltar's interest in Starbuck, nor Boomer, and she continues to be a bit sensitive about that.
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Post by MHall on Mar 1, 2005 11:36:35 GMT -5
I just watched this episode after seeing all 13 (and the first 8 again), and more importantly after thinking deeply about all the clues thus far. Phew, this episode is more mind-blowing now than the first time! I shall refrain from spoilers, though rest assured I couldn't spoil much if I tried.
Here are the seemingly important clues in this episode...
1. Artemis and Aphrodite. Leoben guesses, apparently correctly, that Starbuck worships Artemis and Aphrodite. We had one hint of a Greek god connection a few episodes ago, but now we can conclude that the full Pantheon of 12 Greek gods likely maps to the 12 Lords of Kobol. And this begs a mapping to the 12 Cylon models as well. Six is Aphrodite, no doubt. Apollo is, um, let me think, Apollo! Yep, Cylon. So then who is Kara Thrace, if she is a Cylon model? I've put a lot of thought into it, and we could talk about it, but I can't narrow Starbuck down past Artemis, Athena, or Ares. Just note that if Starbuck is not Artemis, then Zak is! Does anyone know if Zak was Apollo's fraternal twin?
2. Rivers, streams, water. Rivers and streams were mentioned by Leoben two or three times, and then Starbuck makes a crack like, "Boy, you sure do love your rivers and streams." Plus there is the use of water in the interrogation. What is the significance? Many have suggested that Leoben maps to Hermes (sly messenger), or Dionysus (mad.) However, with the water references, could Leoben map to Hades (river Styx plus four other rivers in the underworld)? Or Poseidon (seas, water)? Hermes still seems to fit best, so what else could the water references mean? Does the episode Water have anything to do with it?
3. "Oh, now it all makes sense!" When Leoben meets Starbuck, he doesn't seem to immediately recognize her, but quickly comes up with her callsign. Then he is apparently struck with a profound realization and says something like, "Oh, now it all makes sense!" You could argue that he is simply fitting her into the reports he has heard about Starbuck and the raider and whatnot. But to me it seems like it was more profound, like a revelation about her role in the cycle of time or religion. I think Leoben realizes right then that Starbuck is a Cylon, that she is one of the remaining models previously unknown by Leoben. It's this big a mind-frack that Leoben seems to have there.
4. The cycle repeats, but the roles change. Leoben says that maybe the previous time (or was it the next time) he was the interrogator and Starbuck was in his place.
5. Roslin has visions, including of the future. I'm about 90% sure Roslin has a chip implant, just like I'm 99% sure Baltar does, and so I've nearly taken Roslin off my list of Cylon suspects. I'm also pretty sure that the chip implant was there from at least the start of this episode, and so the implant (possibly wirelessly accessed by Leoben) was influencing Roslin's dreams and giving her visions. Where did the chip come from? Everyone points the finger at Dr. Cottle. Maybe, but Doral was on Colonial One with Roslin right when she became president. Now, how did Roslin see the future? Leoben claimed to Starbuck that he could see the future. Maybe he can. Or it may have been a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy of Leoben's. Once spaced, Leoben's consciousness probably transferred into the chip in Roslin's head. See also my Star Trek II and III post in the Cylon forum (Roslin = McCoy, Leoben = Spock, Starbuck = Kirk, and so now Roslin has Leoben's "katra.")
6. Adama is a Cylon. This still keeps me up at night. I think there is some truth to it, but what? Lee Adama is the most likely suspect, because of his Greek god callsign. Maybe Zak too. Switched at birth with Adama's real children? But not Commander Adama. Also, if Leoben is now living in Roslin's head, he may die if she dies. (Internal Six has implied to Baltar that she dies if he dies.) If Leoben truthfully meant that Lee Adama is a Cylon, but he wanted Roslin to misinterpret him and conclude that Commander Adama is a Cylon, because perhaps Commander Adama represents a mortal danger to Roslin (and thus soon to Leoben's "katra"), then, well, I think that would just "tickle Leoben pink."
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Post by MHall on Feb 13, 2005 11:07:39 GMT -5
Take note of the details of all religious discussions.
Look for religious symbolism.
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Post by MHall on Feb 12, 2005 13:58:48 GMT -5
Warning: This thread has spoilers for episodes 1 to 13!
Now that we've seen them all, what should we watch for when rewatching the mini-series and all the episodes? Here are my thoughts...
"Adama is a Cylon.": A) Watch to see if Loeben is at all trustworthy, in even a tricky sense. B) Watch for evidence that Apollo or his father is a Cylon.
Starbuck-n-Apollo: It makes dramatic sense that either Starbuck or Apollo, but not both, should be a Cylon. Watch for clues!
Billy-n-Dualla: Again probably one or the other is a Cylon. Watch them!
Assassin's assassin: Who assassinated the assassin in Colonial Day? Watch for evidence of a subversive group other than Zarek's.
Gaeta: Is Gaeta a Cylon? Or other subversive? Or writers' patsy? Watch this weasly character's facial expressions when he is in the background. Watch his attitudes with regards to Boomer and Baltar.
Color: What does the color of the Cylons' clothes indicate? (Ignore internal Six.)
Plan: Is there any evidence that the Cylons are pulling their punches, and if so, when did this start?
Changes: Watch for changes in the relationships and the Cylon Plan. Look at Doral's opposition to Roslin and Apollo in the mini. Then in episode 13, if the assassination attempt was due to Cylons wanting to protect Roslin, then that's quite a change!
Any other suggestions for stuff to watch for?
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Music
Feb 13, 2005 9:09:56 GMT -5
Post by MHall on Feb 13, 2005 9:09:56 GMT -5
The U.S. one is better?! Are you from the U.S.? Because that's not what the U.K. viewers seem to think. Well, I guess "we" get what "we" deserve for complaining about the U.K. version. The way it seemed to me, lots of people bitched about the U.K. theme for the first few episodes, and perhaps the Powers That Be heard the complaints. (Ron Moore seems to read the scifi.com forum a bit.) Meanwhile, the bitching stopped as the season wore on and people associated the music with the show. (Personally I always liked the U.K. version.) Then the U.S. version came out, and by now the U.K. viewers had embraced the U.K. version, so the U.S. version sounded bad to U.K. viewers.
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Post by MHall on Feb 9, 2005 6:03:31 GMT -5
The "facts" are:
1. Solar systems with water are rare. 2. The 12 colonies are all in the same solar system.
From this some conclude that you achieve a contradiction, and that it is highly implausible that there could be 12 colonies all in the same solar system, because water-rich solar systems are rare. I am surprised at the people on sci-fi who follow this logic. I realize that their first premise is actually "Worlds with water are rare," but they should realize that in the beginning the Earth was barren; the oceans of water on Earth came later from asteroids (with a lesser amount from comets, but that's another story), so you need to look at the solar system as a whole.
So they should instead reach the conclusion that it's likely that the 12 colonies would be in the same solar system, a rare water-rich one found by the inhabitants of another water-rich solar system, that of Kobol. Earth is also in a water-rich solar system, but it may be just a legend.
Then always come out the folks saying "No way could 12 Caprica-like worlds be in one solar system!" Use your imagination. It's just not that hard, and they need not all be like Caprica. But yes, terraforming probably has something to do with it.
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Post by MHall on Feb 24, 2005 5:48:05 GMT -5
A while ago I rewatched this episode, and rerewatched parts of it, looking for the answer to this question. Tigh says he had two marines tailing her and that they said she went around a corner and was suddenly gone. Adama finds her glasses and concludes that she was real. Unless a real Cylon agent planted the glasses, I don't see any way out of Adama's conclusion. However, Tigh's statement raises another question. How did Shelly disappear? We haven't seen any kind of Cylon transporter technology. If the two marines were Cylon agents, then this starts to make it more possible that Shelly was not real, since only Commander Adama, Colonel Tigh, Lt. Gaeta, Baltar, and reportedly two marines saw her. Commander Adama: Possibly chip-implanted on Ragnar by Leoben. Colonel Tigh: Possibly chip-implanted by, um, someone (would be spoiler.) Lt. Gaeta: Often suspected of being a Cylon by those on the 'net. Baltar: Definitely chip-implanted (or insane.) Episode 8 and 9 spoilers... In episode 8, Leoben says "Adama is a Cylon." I would like to believe this is a true statement in some tricky way, like that Commander Adama has a Cylon chip in his head, though he isn't really a Cylon.
In episode 9, we meet Ellen, who has no memory of the last few weeks and so becomes an instant prime Cylon suspect on the 'net; if she is a Cylon, then she could have implanted Tigh with a chip before the attacks.
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Post by MHall on Feb 8, 2005 14:12:38 GMT -5
"Are you alive?" Ironically one of the Six's asked the Colonel on the armistice station that same question. CHURCH LADY: Could she be... CYLON?!
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Post by MHall on Feb 5, 2005 8:05:48 GMT -5
I have to admit, this episode rubbed me the wrong way the first time I saw it, because of the implausibilities. How lucky can Kara be to crash near the raider and find it on a moon so vast that the vipers cannot find her? How lucky can Kara be that the raider is still space-worthy after a quick patch and still flyable? How lucky can Kara be that she can figure out how to fly this thing before the fleet leaves?
However, I am reminded of my ex-wife, who watched the first half of the Matrix (up until the red pill, blue pill) and couldn't stand its unrealism and refused to watch even one minute more. She never got to see that there is no spoon, and that in fact everything in the movie (like Neo's mouth being "erased" by the feds) had been totally realistic (in a science fiction sense), since it was in fact all taking place in the Matrix up to that point.
The BSG universe is not in a Matrix, but the Colonials may be so manipulated by the Cylons and their Plan that it's almost as if the Colonials were in a Matrix. I hope this is the case, because otherwise I still find this episode too much to swallow.
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Post by MHall on Mar 30, 2005 19:43:13 GMT -5
I say he's human!
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Post by MHall on Mar 2, 2005 8:41:14 GMT -5
You should put "season one spoilers" not just "spoilers" in the title.
Below are season one spoilers, but stated vaguely...
. . .
Early on, Adama and Roslin agreed that Commander Adama would have full control over military matters, while Roslin has ultimate authority in non-military matters. In Episode 8, Roslin says over Commander Adama's objections to interrogating Leoben, "That's an order." In Episode 12, Roslin trumps Commander Adama's objections in order to put Baltar onto a Raptor. So, Roslin does trump Commander Adama in non-military matters.
In Episode 12, when Roslin caused Starbuck to disobey a direct order from Adama, Roslin was effectively removing Adama's authority in military matters. That convinced Adama that Roslin was a threat who needed to be contained, or perhaps just a bad girl who needed a little "time-out." But Roslin has shown herself to be ruthless murderer (episode 8), not anybody's plaything (episode 12), so maybe it wasn't such a good idea to mess with her (episode 13.)
The other details of the government, I'm less sure about. In episode 11, we learned that the president gets the swing vote in the case of ties of the 12 "senators." This suggests a president with only weak power, a bit less than the U.S. president. If just 7 senators can form a coalition, they may be able to control almost every decision.
In Star Wars we have senator Jar Jar Binks, in Babylon 5 we have emperor Vir Cotto, and so what about Battlestar Galactica? The closest character we have to comic relief is Ellen. Senator Ellen? Her interest in episode 11 suggests this could come to pass!
I am kind of amused that they are keeping around the system of representatives of the colonies, now that they are no longer colonies and are mostly mixed together in the fleet. With Zarek and the Saggitarians (sp?), it's obvious that the people are still motivated by colonial prejudices.
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Post by MHall on Feb 24, 2005 8:03:51 GMT -5
Boxey turned 13 on January 27. Did we forget about his birthday?
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Post by MHall on Jan 22, 2005 13:22:56 GMT -5
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Post by MHall on Feb 11, 2005 14:51:35 GMT -5
Rofl Shouldn't that be Battlestar Atlantia? Not if they're running from Wraith!
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